Competition Culture & Doing Right by the Horse - Matt Brown

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So I typically kick the podcast off by having the guests tell us who they are and what it is they do. OK. My name is Nat Brown and I have a eventing and horse training business in Pennsylvania and I’ve been involved in the high performance eventing for a while now and also involved in horsemanship and trying to get more and more people interested in the horsemanship side of training and not just the competitive side. And when you sort of grew up around horses, was horsemanship something that was a big focus where in the barns that you grew up in? No, no, not at all.

I, I grew up in a pretty traditional kind of English system. And so, you know, and I think partly partly that, but also partly that I was a boy, I think meant that I was kind of one of the ones that was looked to when somebody needed to be strong with a horse. And, you know, so the system was definitely kind of dominance based. And because I was the the boy and eventually the man, I was looked towards for looks, looks to for help whenever somebody would have a quote UN quote, you know, difficult or dangerous force. So my younger experience certainly was not what I would consider to be the horsemanship that I definitely know today, is it?

And how what what sort of made you shift from a sort of dominance based training to incorporating horsemanship and maybe being a little more relationship based with the training? Yeah. So I think a couple of things. One is that I think I started to get less and less happy with what I was doing. You know, like obviously when we’re really young, we’re attracted to the horses because I mean, I loved horses from before I could walk basically like from my first memory.

But then the more you get involved, the more it becomes about, you know, your progression and competition and less and less about just simply being with the horses. And so I kind of grew up within the system and got competing and then started working with again, quote UN quote difficult horses. It stopped being fun and, and you know, the horses also didn’t feel like they were having fun. And so if I didn’t, if I wasn’t able to find a different way to do it, I was probably getting ready to quit. And I just happened to meet a trainer at the time.

She was actually at the dressage trainer, traditional German dressage trainer, but really focused on, on lightness and understanding. And it really kind of woke me up to there are some different ways of doing this. And at the same time, it was right when Monty Roberts and the Dorrance brothers were becoming more well known. And so I ended up going to a few Monty Roberts demonstrations and when not at a few greyhound clinics, it just kind of started from there. And then when I met my wife, she ended up having kind of a similar progression with horses as I did when she grew up in 100 Jumper Worlds.

But that ended up coming to what we would have called nature horsemanship in a similar way. Just it stopped being fun. And, you know, you end up seeing how not only that type of system affects the horses, but how it affects the people. And, you know, it can be quite abusive to the people also. And so we ended up sort of coming together on similar paths.

Yeah, I always, it’s always interesting because so many of us, I, I talked about this when it comes to like making money in the business of horses. And there are some people that just seem so either driven in the wrong things or so miserable in the life itself that you sometimes are like, this is so hard to do on great days, you know, to, like, really dread needing to go out to the barn and, like, deal with certain horses or whatever could really take a toll on people. And I think having people that can talk about being in a place of like, yeah, I wasn’t that person that was enjoying horses anymore. And but I knew I wasn’t ready to sort of give it up is such a valuable place to be driven from because I know for myself personally, groundwork was something that I grew up in a very traditional sort of pony club eventing barn. And my first like up down teacher was a Pirelli person.

And I remember being like, this is nuts. This is the craziest thing I’ve ever seen people do with horses. They’re like talking about the horse being introverted or dealing with things a certain way. And I just remember being like, yeah, but I’m I just want to go jump the sticks and, you know, screw this other stuff. And but that I had a really difficult horse, which kind of led me back to this natural horsemanship idea of things.

And, and, and that tends to be a story of a lot of guests will find a different way to do things because they had a horse that kind of changed their perspective. So to hear that it was sort of you just realizing there needed to be a shift or a change in what you were doing so you could show up as the best person. I think it’s something so many people resonate with, whether it’s in a regular job or in horses. It’s a difficult industry and I think the focus of so many businesses is just, you know, we grow up. We, we learn how to compete.

You know, I think David O’Connor loves to say that we learn how to ride before we learn about horses and we learn how to compete or we learn how to ride. And so we, we kind of grow up in this competition culture and we just end up kind of having a horse business without really understanding how to run a horse business or what it means or, and we see so many people getting burnt out and quitting. And it sure would be nice if we didn’t have to get to the point of being burnt out or challenged before we find a different way. You know, it certainly would be nice if we had more of a mainstream idea of, you know, equitation science and how horses think and, you know, all of the educational things that certainly was not a part of my initial education. And, and, you know, a lot of that stuff wasn’t, wasn’t even really a lot of that science wasn’t available then.

So, but I think we know better now and I think that the crux now is just how do we, how do we shift a culture that is still based on that dominant model? Yeah, that’s it. I think it’s such a pivotal time that we’re in now because because of social media, we have access to all of the information, Like the information has never been more accessible than it is today. And almost any type of content, YouTube videos, Facebook, blogs, podcast, there are so many ways to access information that now it’s about getting the greater bodies. And I hate to use the word indoctrinated, but like we’re very systematic in the way that we do things.

And it’s very hard for new systems to break into old systems. And so it’s finding a way for the sports to, you know, sort of look at some of these new things and as a sport culture, get those things. I I just saw a post today actually about some young girl who went to a dressage competition in New Zealand and 30 seconds into her test she got eliminated because she was using a bit less pride. Oh yeah. And, you know, it’s, it’s one of those conversations that I think relates to the horsemanship conversation where if you’re doing something that makes the horse happier to go around and do the job, then that tool or skill set or whatever should be available for people to use it.

And I think, you know, that kind of relates to whips, which I know you’ve been sort of a big member talking about whip use in sport. And I know personally, you know, when I first heard people talking about not using whips, I kind of had a very repulsive thought because I was like, well, what do you mean not use whips? We just always have them and we always carry them. And even if we don’t use them, it’s something that is there. But as I’ve started challenging myself more to not use them or carry them or whatever, you realize how many new tools you need to develop to get results that you could have just manufactured from that thing.

Yeah, Yeah. No, I think that one of the difficulties when it comes to the question world is so how strong our traditions are and how important the tradition is for sort of the different cultures, whether it’s dressage or jumping, you know, we have very, very strong traditions. And so figuring out how to get people to think outside of the box can be challenging because you know, once you learn a certain way and kind of grow up that way and you got what a set in your ways and you’re like, well, I know how to do this, so I’m just going to keep doing it this way. And you know, similar to the whip, like it’s just a tool, obviously, but when it comes to horse abuse and you know, videos that go viral of force abuse, the whip is one of the tools that is the most easily abused. And I, and I think that the the least understood as far as its correct use.

And so, but I’ve gotten a lot of pushback on the articles that I’ve written about that where basically I’ve said that, you know, if we, if we are proving that we’re not responsible enough to use the whip correctly, then maybe we shouldn’t be allowed to have it. And some of the push pushback came. One of the ideas was that we meet the whip for safety with the idea like say you’re on cross country and you’re jumping a big ditch wall out of five star. And if the horse hesitates, it can be dangerous. And that certainly was my what I was taught growing up in my mindset.

Like I was taught that you don’t go into battle without your weapon basically. And so, so yeah, just having the weapons a part of the gear. But I think with that, with that idea of the, it could be being potentially dangerous to not have the whip, it it kind of skips the fire. And if the horse didn’t choose to be in that situation, we we created that situation that if it’s made dangerous by not having the whip, we’ve made it dangerous by not having the whip. Not the horse isn’t making it dangerous by hesitating or making it dangerous because we either didn’t prepare the horse for that or the horse isn’t the type of force that should be jumping, that type of, you know, So it just kind of it takes the responsibility off of us in the same way that I feel like people will say that, you know, horses are big dangerous animals and yeah, they are potentially dangerous, but that can’t be the excuse for them being rough.

You know, again, it just kind of it’s one of those sayings that we use to take the responsibility off of ourselves. Yeah, no, it’s so interesting and as I’m kind of listening to you, I’m so you obviously had a successful or good career at the top of eventing. Was that in a sort of traditional training setting? And then how has the way you’ve brought along horses or developed horses changed as you’ve started saying, well, actually maybe we don’t need to use these things in order to like make things happen, Like because I noticed that it definitely takes longer, right? Like.

Oh yeah, for sure. I’m probably not going to have my 6 year old ready for like, you know, preliminary. And because, you know, when there are hesitations, when there are things, we have to kind of stay there a little bit longer to get the full picture of what the job is versus, you know, and that’s as a writer, one of the things that I know could be frustrating because I go, God, I know past me could make this happen, right? And. Like.

But, you know, I’m trying this new thing. So how did you kind of overcome that sense of feeling, rushed almost as the thing that comes to mind, like I need to make this happen, that sort of feeling. Yeah. Well, it’s just that pressure and some of it comes from ourselves, some of it comes from the industry, you know, and I have been incorporating now it’s worksmanship techniques into our training sense, you know, we, we met basically. So that was in 2003 and before I was involved in any high performance anything.

And, but once I started to get more involved in high performance, you start to feel a bit more the, the pressure and the expectation to get results. And you, you kind of step into the high performance culture. And most of that culture is, you know, outcome based. And so the focus starts to be less and less on how you’re doing what you’re doing and more are you getting the results. And so I think for me, I started to lose a little bit sight of my values when it comes to our training and what I value.

And I certainly, you know, never did anything that was illegal or like I regret looking back there certainly times where I overuse the width on cross country or got frustrated or, you know, things like that. That obviously is just human that it’s going to happen for all of us. But I realized after after I was named an alternate for the Rio Olympics. And that was actually probably the lowest I’ve ever felt in my career. And obviously you’d think that like, that was the most success that I had had up in that up until that point in my career, that you’d think that like, you know, you should feel good about that.

But I didn’t feel good about it. And partly it was because of all of the values that I had slowly started to sacrifice in order to get there. And so in order for my own mental health, had to kind of re evaluate what’s important to us and to myself. And realized that while a lot of people like to say, especially in inventing that you couldn’t force a horse to go fuck star, unfortunately you can’t. And you know, unfortunately a lot of those dominance based approaches work in as in as much as getting a result.

Now when I look at those horses, those horses don’t look happy or relaxed to me. They look shut down to me. But a shutdown horse is going to perform with a lot of consistency as he’s he’s given up on life basically. You know. And so, so, yeah, when you are approaching the horses like they’re sentient, you know, beings and wanting to do right by the horse, then the the horse gets to have a voice and not doesn’t necessarily produce the most consistent results, you know.

And so for me, I had to kind of let go of the focus on the outcome. And I still want to be on teams, I still want to compete, I’ve star, but I want to do it in a way that is valuing the horse in the way that I want. And so if that’s if I find that that’s not possible, then I’m just not going to do it. But. But it took a lot to get to that point.

Then I think earlier in my career before I was out established, I don’t think I would have been able to make that decision because my. My livelihood, my business was dependent on me getting some results, get a name and make a business, all of that. So it’s an incredibly, you know, challenging place to be, I think. And I’m just lucky that I’m where I’m at in my career right now, where I can feel a bit freer to talk about these things because I’m not so afraid of the consequences. Yeah, no.

And it’s such a, it’s such a hard place to be because once you really start to pay attention to the signs and the posture and the way the force just moves through life, you really start to see these horses that are, yes, getting the job done and maybe even being quite successful at it. But they don’t have that. They just kind of have a glaze over their eyes a bit. They’re, they’re there and they’re performing. And some of them, you know, maybe, but like the way they get treated in the, the care aspect of it.

But the, the, it’s the, the whole picture of the thing where, you know, I even I’m a big bio mechanics nerd, so I’m pretty obsessed with just watching the way horses go. And sometimes I’ll see horses and the people are doing everything for that horse except riding it correctly. And you know, you just kind of expect there might be some pain or, and I don’t mean pain is in like, you know, broken leg pain, but pain is in like, you know, we’ve all put our helmet on and had a weird, maybe men haven’t. But I put my helmet on and my hair pulls 1 strand a weird way. And you know, it’s annoying and eventually I have to RIP my helmet off and like fix my full head of hair.

But horses can’t do that. And so, so do you, do you think it’s possible to get a horse to five star without the use or overuse of tools and, you know, quote motivators? Or is that question in itself the thing you’re trying to discover? Well, I mean, it absolutely is. And this last year, 2025, I went to Kentucky with my horse Alderwood and but not my horse, Shelley owns him.

But my the previous time, the last time I rode to Kentucky was 2017. And that was one of the times that I felt like watching the video back. I wasn’t happy with how I was using the the crowd and felt like I was I was using it for me more than the horse because I was trying to do everything I could to just make sure that we got around the the course and I could make my owners happy and could continue getting on teams and all of that. So I I made the commitment with Dan Alderwood, Dan and the barn made the commitment with him that I wasn’t going to ride with a stick. And so I rode at Kentucky and the five star without the stick and unfortunately he tripped and shall in, but that was nothing to do with carrying or not carrying this deck.

He was we were probably 3/4 of the way around the course and he was flying around and he was amazing. And you know, so I definitely know that it is possible. I think that though there are some types of horses where cool if you didn’t have a stick or if you didn’t want to put a lot of extra pressure on them to get them around what they wouldn’t be 5 star horses. You know, I think that the the more traditional thoroughbred kind of aggressive minded horse, those are the horses who are motivated enough to take you around a course like that without needing a lot of extra pushing and prodding. And but I think the more warm bloody types, kind of less forward thinking horses, I think those kind of horses would be the kind of horses that if you’re trying to jump a huge ditch wall, you might need to use the state cross for ground.

But it’s it’s going to be dangerous. But I think for me then instead of carrying the whip, you just have to question whether that should be an inventing horse or not. Yeah. It. It really does the type of horse you have and not even necessarily breed, but like minded horse you have.

It’s such a big factor into sort of everything we do. It’s always funny because the podcast is really hard to like make generalizations because you know, I, I have six horses and you know, you couldn’t get 6 more different horses and like 4 of them are half siblings. And so it’s always funny because I’m like, you know, to say, oh, you know, no horse needs this. Or it kind of goes back to the bitless bridal thing where it’s not every horse is going to go well in a bit less bridle. I’ve put horses that I can ride in a neck rope in a bit less bridle and I had no steering.

And so it not everything works for every horse, but to have the option to have them go around in the best way possible. And maybe that is you carry a whip and you only use it the one time at the ditching wall and you’re conscientious of that and you’re but I think it’s hard when you’re actually in the sport and I mean like in it doing it on the course to really have that full especially, you know, if it’s your first time, you know, even your first preliminary ever is feels ambitious and scary and. You know, a lot of pressure. And so to expect people to perform perfectly every time they go out in the dressage arena, in the start box, in the Stadium course, I think it’s hard. But then it goes back to your statement of, well, should this horse or should this person be an inventor?

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that the the key to me is that I think we need to start to coming come to try to come to a consensus about the use of punishment in training. Because the, the, the biggest problem to me is when people are using the stick or any aid as a as a punishment rather than a training tool. And I 99% of the time do not punish my horses.

You know, there will be times where in the moment, you know, I might need to do something that training wise I wouldn’t normally do. But that’s going to be in the moment and I’m going to think about that moment and what how I could have set that moment up differently so that I didn’t have to be in that situation next time. You know, So I think that using the whip to reinforce the natural aids could be a reasonable use. But I think, like you say, I think even then we could question, can we can we back up that natural aid some other way? But you know, and I think there’s lots of ways to do it.

But I think just training wise, I think the first thing that we have to be asking when when we’re training at horses, what does the source want to do? Who is he? Who is she and what does she want to do? I mean, Dan is loves cross country. Like he would be the kind of horse where if you fell off and there was a jump in front of him, he just would go jump in, you know, and he came more struggles with the control of dressage and and show jumping where cross country, I can get him his head and let him gallop and he sees the jump from a mile away and takes me to it.

He can struggle with the what can feel very kind of restricted to him with the massage work. And so I have to be careful with how I go about, you know, training him for dressage and show jumping so that he doesn’t feel overly restrained. And, you know, and, and so I think every horse is different. And even though, even though, or just because we might buy a horse for a specific job, it doesn’t, doesn’t mean that that horse should be doing that job and might not want that job. I think that’s one thing that we ought to be very aware of in the training and not, you know, especially when we have a horse training business, a client brings the horse to us, you know, wants it to become a preliminary eventing horse.

And just because that’s what the client wants doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s what we should make the horse do, you know? But it’s hard when that’s what they’re going to pay you to do. And if you tell them that, look, this isn’t going to be a preliminary level event horse, then they’re probably just going to go to somebody else who will try to turn the horse in. Yeah. And how do you find, you know, you you’ve sort of put yourself in this position where you’re as far as event trainers go, you’re probably known as someone who would approach something with maybe a little bit of a different eye than a traditional quote, traditional sort of event trainer.

So how do you find dealing with clients who maybe are they do want this thing with this horse, but you can kind of see that maybe that’s not the job for the horse or maybe that levels a bit too much for the horse. How do you approach those tough moments while still laundering the fact that you have a business to run and bills to pay? Yeah. But, you know, I think at this point we have enough of a reputation where most people who are just wanting to get a result or want a quick fix or are simply looking to, you know, win more ribbons, those people probably aren’t going to come to us because people are kind of know what are how we do things. But when somebody does come to me with a specific goal in mind and it’s clear to me that at least for this moment, that goal is not where the person should be focused.

I just try to do as much educating as I can and and explain that parts of the reasons why they’re maybe struggling with the horse training wise is because the horse either isn’t ready for that goal or maybe isn’t cut out for that goal, or maybe it wants a different job. But I usually start by just saying like that’s those are great goals. It’s good to have goals like this. So let’s kind of evaluate where you and the horse are right now compared to that goal and, and how you would go about going from wherever you are right now to to the goal that you want to get to. And most of the time with those people or with most people, but I’ll end up taking it back to the ground and saying that, look, for me, this is the foundation that you would need to have in order for this to this horse to have the best chance at reaching.

Goal. And, you know, and so I’m pretty honest with them about my process. And for me, the kind of foundation that is necessary for a horse and a rider to be able to go out confidently and, you know, compete and be successful, not just with ribbons, but be successful because they feel good about, you know, how they did at the competition, how they rode, how the horse felt, All of those things that go into, you know, success, whether that is a ribbon at the end of the day or not. You know, Yeah. And how do you help riders feel the less tangible things, right?

Because if you go to a horse show and you get handed that ribbon, it feels good, at least in a moment. But when you actually have like, I call it like ear floppy dressage test or like just a, a cross country course where you’re just like in a rhythm and you’re catching like some people definitely feel that. And they go, Oh my God, I felt that. That was amazing. But some people don’t necessarily have the feel for that.

So how do you go about trying to get someone to feel those things that are less tangible? Yeah. But I think that I think that ultimately most people get it because most of the time when you’re riding a horse and you’re pushing for a goal and, and maybe you win the, the class or whatever, people still get frustrated and they still, you know, I was like, you know, feel like it should be easier than it is. And I think just a lot of people have never ridden a horse in a soft way and actually had it do the thing that they were looking for. They they’ve only ever sat on horses that, you know, you have to make do it because that’s what your trainer is telling you to do.

But I really find that a lot of people that come from that kind of outcome based program usually are that the riders that are the most frustrated and the most stressed. And so especially when those riders come to me and I asked them, are you having fun? And most of the time the answer is a clear no, you know, And so, and then I just say, well, if you’re not having fun, then I guarantee you the horse isn’t having fun. And, and, and it doesn’t need to be this difficult. You, you can be doing what, what you want to be doing and enjoying it at the same time.

And we might need to change your focus a little bit. We might need to take some of your focus off of the outcome, But I think when when you start to feel how easy it could be, it, it makes it really difficult to go back to then just kind of picking your horse up and trying to make it go round, you know. So I think the biggest part to me is trying to tap into how’s it how the rider is feeling in the moment and ask them what this feels like to you. Do you feel like you’re against the horse in this moment? Do you feel like the horse is against you?

And, and try to just get people seeing what it is that they’re that they’re feeling. So initially I just, I do, I ask a lot of questions and most of it comes down to what are you feeling? Because once people, once people start to tune into what they’re feeling, they will feel it. It’s just they haven’t been paying attention to those feelings or they were told that feeling bad is normal. You know what they’re told that normal to feel like the horse is against your hand or pushing against the leg.

That just means you have to kick harder, you know, and then so that just becomes normal to them. But when you bring their attention back to it, it still doesn’t feel good, you know? So it’s just changing their focus. Yeah. And I do find that.

So in Aiken, most of the clientele is adult amateur, like older adult amateur. But a lot of them struggle with this sense of feel. And I find that especially women who get into forces later in life, they, they have personal expectations of themselves because they’ve probably been successful at something outside of horses in order to be able to really afford to do horses at this stage in their life. And they struggle the most because they think about it so much. And it becomes this sort of thinking spiral versus getting into their body and actually feeling what they’re feeling.

And you know, it’s hard because I’ve obviously never been at that point in my life, but I have been the young rider who was very outcome based. And I know when I became professional, even though I really didn’t become professional in the sport, I became professional through like sales. Barnes The pressure to go out and perform was actually even more so because like if I if the horse had a refusal, like I was the reason that horse wasn’t getting sold or whatever. And that pressure really took away from my ability to compete well, even on my own personal horses. And so there’s all these different ways I think we can lose the feeling of like, is this good or is this hard?

Because sometimes the mental piece feels harder to overcome than like my horse won’t bend left. Or maybe the mental piece is so huge that when my horse doesn’t bend left, that’s when I freak out because I’m like all of this stuff and my horse isn’t bending left. And it’s probably just because like, I’m on the wrong seat belt or whatever, but like. Yeah. You know, it’s such a tricky sport to get all of the pieces for everyone.

Yeah. To be in a place where the sport itself feels productive. Yeah. But I think that’s what I love about horses and working with horses. I think, you know, they’re they’re in the moment and they’re doing things based on how they feel.

And I think that’s the the thing that. Humans, we struggle with the most as being in the moment and feeling the moment because we tend to get in our heads and especially in sports, you know, in most other sports, if something isn’t working, you can just try harder. And trying harder isn’t isn’t necessarily going to work with horses. And most of the time it’s going to do the opposite thing you want to do. And so it’s an interesting sport where you can’t just physically overcome.

You know, I had a client who was one of the first female triathletes back in the day and she was so used to just pushing herself and it was really, really hard for her with the horse. If the horse was struggling to not just, well, why can’t I just push it more? Really, really difficult for her to to understand that that’s not not how it’s going to work. So I think that when, when I’m training, I, I really try to bring the person into the moment and tell me and, and ask them to explain to me in the moment what it is that they’re feeling. And if what they’re feeling is feels like tension to them or feels like a fight, then we we try to change the focus and a little bit just taking it to your, your bending example.

That. When I’m trading the horses, I, I try to just see all of what they’re telling me as just information that it’s neutral, that it’s not a good thing, you’re a bad thing, even if the horse was doing something in the moment that I don’t want it to do. And so just thinking about it as information and not putting a judgement on what’s happening in the moment, it, it frees you up to go with it enough to figure out how to read or act. And so it’s the same with with people and trying to get them in the mindset of, look, I understand that this feels like a mistake to you where this feels wrong to you. But if we just take the, the negative judgement out of it, just don’t worry about it.

Just let let the the feeling of it being wrong, just let it go and just observe what’s happening in the moment. And you don’t have to try to fix anything right now. Just observe what’s happening and just sit with it, even if it might be uncomfortable to not try to fix it. And a lot of time you’re going to see the thing that you’re missing and you’re going to realize that, oh, just my attention was causing the problem. And just by letting go of the tension, my horse stopped doing the thing that I didn’t want to do.

Or you see something that you can do differently that you are missing because you were thinking I want the horse to bend this way and focused on doing that and so you were missing these other things the horse was trying to tell you. So. I, I really enjoyed that part of helping people kind of get out of their heads because we’re all so hard on ourselves and especially with horses, because we’re trying to do the right thing. Then it feels like nobody wants to make a mistake. Nobody wants to be wrong.

And, and most people I find are actually better at allowing their horse to be wrong than they are allowing themselves to be, you know, and, and seeing their horses mistake just being information versus they make a mistake and they’re automatically, you know, down on themselves. And I know better than that. I shouldn’t do that and all of that negative, you know, self talk is just getting in the way of their progress. And so anyways, that was kind of going off on a tangent. But yeah, no, I, I think horse people are where type A people with type B problems, you know, like we, we’re very analytical and we could be very hard on ourselves.

And I do think a lot of it does stem from we just want to do right by the horses and that it itself can put pressure on us. And you know, so it And so as we sort of start winding this down, talking about pressure, talking about sort of all of this, where do you see horse sports, whether that be only eventing, whether that be all the Olympic sports, whatever. Where do you see or sports going? Do you see them kind of keeping the same trajectory? Do you see them sort of changing for, you know, the Olympics or for forcemanship?

How do you sort of see horse sports evolving over the next few years? Yeah, I think we’re definitely at an interesting time right now. No, I think like you said earlier, like the information is so much easier to access them and we’re learning so many new things about how horses think and behave and how we think and behave. I think we’re positioned to make some really, really big changes for the positive. That being said, culture is culture and tradition are not things that usually change very easily.

For better or worse. I think things are going to change because like the information, all the good information is out there and you have access to it. Everybody also has access to all the bad stuff. And the more abuse videos come out, the the less viable our sport is. And I think that the reaction that a lot of people have up to to that type of bad press is that wanting to put our best foot forward and show the world the positive things about all the sport.

But I think the only way to progress is really it’s going to be to talk about all those negatives. And I think the more, the more we kind of fight against, you know, change and fight against. No. There are believing that there are people who who just think that horses should ever be ridden. And so if we take the whip away, that’s one step closer towards not having a sport anymore, towards just letting horses live in a field and not being allowed to do anything with them.

And so I think that the biggest best thing that we can do to help the sport change in a positive way and not lose the sports is to just be honest about what we see and what we feel. And to to have honest conversations about those things that we’re not just kind of having a knee jerk reaction to, you know, whatever idea we’re, we’re not in agreement with. Because I think we have an opportunity to really change things for the benefit of the horses and do it in a way that also benefits the sport. But the but but the sports are going to change like they are going to change whether we like it or not, you know. And so I think even for the riders and trainers who who don’t personally want to change, if they want to still have a job training horses, they’re going to have to start to expect some change because it’s going to happen whether they want it or not.

But but I certainly see there being some really positive outcomes for horses. And I think as much as we can just continue to have non reactive conversations and invite different, different voices and in different opinions. And I think that we have an opportunity to really change things for the better. It’s just not that easy to have that type of conversation in today’s society. Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree with a lot of the points you you’re making.

And I think, you know, on top of having the conversations and the information available, going out and doing it in a way that we can feel proud of is actually the fastest way to get the needle moved because it does the sports no good. If there’s just a bunch of people from the sidelines saying this is how horses should be trained. This is how that’s all fine and dandy. And a lot of us would love to do these better methods, but it’s doing these methods when you have the pressure on that we’re trying to see like that’s the the challenge, right? It’s anyone with no goals and know anything can go and click or train their horse or whatever and I do some quicker training so I’m not even saying anything against that but.

Yeah, yeah, it it. The reason I think a lot of us are interested in this topic is because we love horses, but we’re also athletes simply appreciate horses as athletes. And so I really think going out, you know, doing what you’re doing, going to Kentucky without a that around and and, you know, just kind of trying to put that example forward as, hey, yeah, there’s some stuff that we used to do that we’re not proud of, but like, look at we can do this and you know it. The horse actually seems to enjoy it and enjoy the partnership and you know, so yeah, so that was that was my tangent. But yeah, so no, I definitely agree with a lot of the points you’re making.

And I think it’s a good conversation for people to have even within their own barns of are these problems that I need to be solving with a whip? Is this a problem that I can solve if I took a weakened did groundwork? Or is this, if I just look at this a little bit differently, would I be able to come up with a different way to treat or handle or solve this problem? So yeah, I think, you know, just keeping awareness up, but this has been such a great conversation. How do people find you?

Follow along with what you do, All of that good stuff. Yeah. Well, on our on our social media, Matt Cecily Brown or East West training stables on on social media or East West training stables.net is our our website. But but yeah, we, we try to put, put, you know, training videos out on our social media and we try to write articles. We mainly write for the Chronicle of the Horse, you know, doing podcasts like this.

So, so yeah, we’re, we’re we’re out there. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me. Yeah, Thank you. This is great conversation.

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