Why 95% of Riders Have Back Pain (And How to Finally Fix It) - Matthias Agneessens

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I typically kick the episodes off by having the guests tell us who they are and what it is you do. Great. Thank you for inviting me on your podcast and I’m at the technicians. I’m a manual therapist for humans and for horses and by Mechanicus. That’s reason why I can do so much more for both riders and horses, but and the way they’re riding, how do use your muscles in the correct way?

It’s kind of very short, but I. And how did you get started on the path of one helping humans and then helping horses and then combining the two? Well, Samantha, it’s a very nice question because when I was very young, obviously I was also connected with horses because otherwise you don’t fall into the into this world of of these horses and riding and professional. So when I was 15 something I was very ill often. And basically, to get a Long story short, something helped me a lot and that was manual therapy.

And I was then OK, very interested. I was always, always interested in anatomy, Physiology, pathology. So I said, cool, I want to know more about this. So I went for at that moment. So by now 24 years nearly ago, no, 25 years ago, we know them.

Well, I got there. I started studying all private at that moment and I was super happy to be able to do that. And I studied for humans when I was 15. I started during normal school and weekends, evening. I all did that.

And then when I was 18, I actually went to the states. I to the states crossed the big water, the big area. And then I studied first cranial sacral therapy for horses. I also studied cranial sacral therapy for humans already at that stage. Then I studied also manual therapy for horses, but that was back in Europe.

And then after that, well, there are what, 21 years of age, I had some medication and I felt like gay and what now? And then I started, I had my human practice very fun and I was so amazed. So, you know, going, you know, like a real like business type person, you want to go, you want to go forward. So you’re super motivated. And I am still up to today’s super motivated.

And I was then going in that part and I started to do the horses and I did horses around the block, let’s say around my hometown. Where else do you go? I mean, I thought, no, a certain moment somebody, I asked somebody, well, how do I get this bigger riders, right, Samantha? I mean, how do you and they don’t know you, they’re not going to call you. So this is a little bit very up situation, Kim.

And on a certain moment that person said to me, Matt, yes, you have to call them. So I don’t know how it is in the United States, Samantha, but here in Europe or at least in Belgium at that time, we had the golden pages. This is a really with all Fern watch from businesses, so limpets 2 writers, 2 stables and I called them saying hello nissance when do you make an appointment? Of course you need to know your you need to know your profession. You need to know what you do and that what you do has to be good.

So I went to a couple of riders and yeah, well, and from there it all started and and I started to do horses and on a certain moment I was never home. And my human practice, general human practice, I saw really going down because I wasn’t there. I was laid as a traffic jams. I was and I started flying around and I thought, so Fast forward to another couple of years. At that time, sorry, I also was trauma therapist or humans.

And then it were it became not combinable for both. I mean, and I was more interested in horses. So I thought human practice, you know, get out and I started really slowing down my human practice. And after that, somebody asked me also when I started with his horses, I mean, and this was a very big person. So I don’t know, you know, a couple of people in show jumping and I guess, oh, Yep, you know, I had at that time, 2006, 2007, I had Mr.

Lansing. So and Mr. Lansing, he actually triggered everything for me. So I was able to greet the horses. There was world champion and I was like, wow.

And he asked me something. He triggered actually everything for me outside the fact that he’s an amazing person to work with, I mean, and a team of amazing people. And he asked me how should I ride that horse? And I’m like, hold on, you’re the champ, not me. I’m just a man, love them.

No way, you know? And you ask me. And that’s settled me off a different part in my journey. And I helped him in a certain way, by mechanically, of course, not trade wise. I mean, you don’t become world champion if you don’t know how to.

And I mean, I titled that Yoss Lansing is an amazing horse rider, amazing horse person, amazing rider, amazing trainer. So absolutely. And then I thought, OK, it’s not that bad to keep my human practice, but focus on riders, go into the bio mechanics. So Fast forward a couple of more years, I studied another education masters in equi science and that was in the UK. Then during my job, working really long hours and flying here, there, everywhere, and I started to see, well, these people, they don’t use Muslims, they don’t derive muscles.

So Samantha, tell me, how many percentage of people have back pain in the horse riding world? Oh God, 95%. Yeah. Well, outside fact that we, I mean, of course when it’s broken, I mean when it’s ruptured or when it’s arched, there’s nothing we can do. But we can support with muscle, with ligaments, with these kind of things, joint stability.

And I thought I have to do something with this. And there came move to right from move to right. So yeah, that’s how it came. And and then I started with move to right. So then I started defining which muscles you need for show jumping from Dress Ash course for venting you needs to have the combination and that’s how I started to go from there and and that’s how I then ended up in doing 50% riders and their horses.

So interesting. I resonate so much with your story because when I was a junior, I grew up a venting and I took I had some health issues. So I took a step back from eventing and started riding with a dressage trainer. And she was just some woman I kind of met through Pony Club. At the time I was riding with her, she was in school to get her doctorate and physical therapy.

So the whole, every time I’d ride with her, she would break down what this muscle is doing and why I’m getting this result. Then it changed the way I viewed myself as a rider. And I’m so lucky that I had that at such a young age because I start to have a problem with the horse and I go, OK, I’m gripping too much with my inside thigh or I’m doing, you know, I’m doing these things that I can tell is negatively affecting the horse. And because I have awareness of it, I can do something about it. But so many riders lack the awareness of even like where their body parts are and what they’re doing with them.

So yeah, I agree. I mean, sorry to deal with that, but that’s completely true. I mean, how many riders do you see with groin issues, with neck issues, with shoulder issues, back issues? I mean, knee, ankle. I mean, it’s like their whole bodies teared apart.

Yes. And you know, it’s so interesting because I, I, I’m more so a rider, but I occasionally will teach the people who own the horses that I ride and they’ll get in the saddle and I’ll be like, do you feel that your left shoulder is in front of your right shoulder? Your your counter Ben, the horses trying to correct Ben and, and they don’t feel it. And so that’s what I recommend. You need to start going to the gym or you need to start doing something to start feeling that mind muscle connection because it’s not going to get better until you can feel the movement through your body.

That and that’s that’s very correct. And can I just say to you, Samantha, and of course, maybe it’s difficult for me to say something for the United States or for your area or however I find within Europe and especially Belgium, Holland, Germany, Spain, France, the, the fitness is one thing. I mean outside when talking about gyms, you know, fitness gyms, sadly enough, there is no support in that part. They don’t. So people go, I don’t know the pricings and the packages you can get there.

But me as a manual therapist, I see that often. So loads of my clients, they go to the fitness and they go to the gym because they say, well, Matthias, I mean your exercises. I love them, but I want to have more powerful. I want to be more dis want to be more that fine, you do what you want. However, I said don’t I wouldn’t recommend you because in the gym they do things on machines and they don’t have a clue again what they’re doing.

There’s nobody telling them how they do it if they wrong muscle contraction. And even I get riders in who then say, of course, because I’m the man, I’m a manual therapist. And they say, Oh yeah, but I went to the gym and I injured myself or whatever. And I yeah, thank you. They give me absolutely revenue.

It’s, it’s so it’s so strange how actually that should be something that makes you better often makes you worse. Yeah, and I think, you know, you kind of mentioned it a little bit, but there’s no support system in the gym unless you go and find a personal trainer or someone who understands. That’s why what you do is so fascinating because you understand not just the rider and what’s needed for the rider to perform, but you also understand how what the rider does influences the horse. And so you have multiple ways that you can kind of attack a problem where, I mean, in my area specifically, it’s kind of a horse hub. So we can go to a yoga class and that yoga class is being taught by someone who does show jumping or some way.

So like, they at least understand, you know, but that’s also not strength training. Sometimes strength training, really, you wrench your arm picking something up for you and then that creates a whole cascade of compensation and all of these things that then get translated into what’s happening in the horse. Yeah, so I’ve, I’ve got I’ve got some some very fun example, basically literally 1 1/2 week ago I was in Belgium and I’ve got somebody on new on my program and she’s a dress ash rider, amazing driven woman, can’t say anything wrong. And she even does Pilatus and she says I’m active, I’m doing Pilatus, I’m doing this, I’m doing that. And I don’t know what’s wrong with me, Mathias.

And the woman is young. The woman is only 2930, so very young. She runs a yard, livery yard. She gives lessons to like livery lesson, you know, like able, like kids riding and stuff like that. She’s like, I don’t know my test, why I can’t do this.

I’ve got an amazing horse. It can do a lot. I’ve got, I really do a lot of work and I’m stuck so. And she heard from me through somebody else. So I go there and I treated.

So I gave her first a coaching lesson on her horse, biomechanically, and she went like, what? Yeah, but I tried to. I said, yeah, but you do. You have your pelvis and your upper body is crooked. All your lower body, I mean, you’re not aligned at all.

So yeah, but my lower back starts to hurt. And I said because you use wrong muscling. I said. So the man before I asked her to do 3 exercises and train them only these three, nothing else. At that moment, she still was going.

She went on holiday to I think Kenya. So I she says, well, I haven’t been training every day there are like on holiday. OK, fair enough. You know when you’re on holiday, when you’re with your family on holiday, I understand. But she said I’ve been brave enough to do every two a second, sometimes every 3rd day, every day my exercises.

OK, good, fine, no worries. I understand and I gave her training on her horse and she went like it doesn’t work. My back is hurting because you don’t use your muscles correctly. You don’t use. So I could see on that horse that her ankles were weak.

I call them broken. So you know, when you’re on the ground and you can see the sole of the of the boots, that means your ankle is against the horse and you press so your knees going in the saddle, your adapters go and be tense. So the adapters for people who don’t know or the inside of your upper tie to say they’re a bit more casual. It’s so it’s so funny to see. And then of course, she goes sitting with the I would call that the goose neck.

So merely the the hunchback of Notre Dame with the neck forward. Yeah, like look, and I’m sitting and I’m like, excuse me, You wear dress, Ash. I think she not be in the position anymore but for posture and more and like obviously. So I start to adapt her. She went like, I can’t write like this.

I can’t support myself at all. I’m doing. And also, maybe you didn’t know that matters, but I’m doing Pilatus. I said, well, I guess your Pilatus instructor might be an instructor who just doesn’t know anything. And sometimes I’m a bit, you know, harsh in it.

I mean, Pilatus should be actually somebody that teaches you. A good Pilatus instructor should be somebody that teaches you how to do. How to get that core? How to get that? I said you don’t know.

So I guess your instructor is word zip. Yeah. He went like, I’m doing Pilates already for three years. Like I’m so sad to hear that. It was vivid meeting actually for her.

She felt bad, really bad. I’m like, no worries, stop dipping lattice, I’ll help you eye race. So the riding and on certain moments that she could hold it that her muscles didn’t go into a fatigue, is it Well, of course that’s worse. Certainly went like running on a natural rhythm, is it? And then the natural balance and she went like, how is this possible?

Is it because she’s a very sober, she’s not dreaming, She knows I want never will be able to do professional Grand Prix, Grand Prix. She’s not the dreamer. She’s a very realistic woman, hard working, so there’s nothing wrong. And it was so funny. OK, so she came on the horse like with elastic legs after hey look, they’re fun.

Do I start? And then I said to her, let’s do some exercises. She and I’m like, are you freaking kidding me? So small easy exercises. So I took her on a step, you know, like the little step we used to get on the horse and said go and stand with the ball of your feet on the edge.

Now going in into horse stands, face like or squat face how you want to call it. And then you’re going to, when you’re there in your balance, you’re going to push yourself up, but from your core and not pushing from your toes just but lifting yourself up if you would like. I can’t. So she’s now trying this, but I see her next month again. So she has a whole area of exercises that she needs to complete and with video call in between and stuff like that to follow up.

And that was like, get now you’re going to get walk on the step like we would walk on stairs, but you don’t push yourself off the ground. You’re going to pull yourself up on your hamstring with that one length that is up the stairs, up the middle step. Is she? I can’t, I can’t. I basically I can’t and I’m doing already three years and she was really getting emotional on it, which I understand.

Poor woman, literally I’m, I feel sorry for her. And after that she said OK, that this is it, I’m going to train super hard. So we’ve been enjoying of course, our time. And then I did manual therapy on her back, fully blocked her neck blocked so the abductors again, the groin. So, so you see how that all effects when you don’t do it appropriate.

And then of course I treated the horses before and they also had issues because of a locked pelvis, a blocked groin, I mean the whole solar structure around. I don’t know if I should explain solar structure a bit more or not. Yeah, maybe. So yeah, that the solar structure, what is the solar structure is actually the structure which goes from your lumbar spine, lumbar spine 2 words, your pelvis and all the connections going from lumbar area back 2 words. So that all the attachments, all the nerves, etcetera in there in the pelvis, going to the side of your pelvis, the back of your pelvis, the below side of your pelvis, all that area we call SOAS structure.

This is a super complicated structure, but if you use it correctly, amazing. So and she went like how is this possible? I went to a normal physio for ages. Every 2nd just tweak like how is that possible? Yes they don’t work by mechanically and I work by mechanically.

Her horse was not doing what it want what what she wanted her horse was. My horse is not turning to the right, of course, darling, because your horse is not going to the right because you are blocked. Also. It’s so, so special. So I started, I give her now also coaching on the wharves.

I guess if that doesn’t work, I mean, only the exercises won’t help her. Her awareness like you mentioned Samantha need to be aligned and she needs to know exactly if I want to go to the right and you want to steal your worse to the right, what do you do? Which muscles you contract and obvious in the start you will be thinking oh that muscle, what is that again? How does that feel? OK, it will become an automation.

You know you will be very automated in it and that’s all fine, but it will has to start with a very difficult process in the mind. Yeah, I, I know when I’m teaching a rider something new, maybe it’s that they need to sit back more. I always go, it’s going to feel like you’re leaning back off the tail of the horse, but in reality, you’re actually just sitting straight. And I go and you need to think about that every step you’re riding. And then eventually you’ll get to the point where you only have to check in with it.

And then eventually you get to the point where it’s not even a thought. You just sit straight and that we move on to the next thing that you need to fix. But you know, so many people and myself included, right? Like we get frustrated because we go, OK, I, I know something isn’t right, but I don’t know. And maybe my trainer told me the thing that’s not right, but I don’t know how to make myself get better at it.

And that’s where I think what you’re talking about, that like conscious, actual act of working through it. Like it’s not just oh OK, I become better because I now know this thing that’s wrong. Yes, indeed, so and. But that’s also something I want to begin on and and I don’t want to harm anybody with it telling you already upfront, I don’t want to harm anybody and trainers or trainers. Horses, however, they don’t know Physiology most of them they don’t know pathology, they don’t know enough anatomy and they don’t know bio mechanics for human.

Is it before horse something if they no work? Yeah, so I also think I mean my eyes, but who am I to to to say to the people what they have to do or not have to do. But in my the educational system of trainers should be reviewed and looked at to improve because of course, if they if nobody taught you this, how we then tell somebody else. Yeah, exactly. So no bad words towards trainers, but I do know this, that when a trainer tells you, Oh yeah, but keep your legs there.

OK Question mark enter keep your legs there. How is it? Tell me how tell me how OK, your legs won’t be there if your seating bones, pelvis core stability is not there. Your legs won’t stay in the same position, is it if your shoulders go beside your back, So going on the side of your back because you’re kind of nearly seated your horse, your pelvis will go the other way if your knees will grip and your lower leg will be loose. I mean, very simplistic steps things, but trainers don’t.

And often trainers go from their experience, which is all fine because experience plus knowledge can give you a lot more. I and I totally agree on that part, but I don’t agree on the knowledge always what they have the knowledge about the training. I’m not going to this say yes, no, because one, I think the trainer and the rider should have a good connection, that’s one. But secondly, that trainer should have that knowledge of bio mechanics awareness, like you noticed yourself when you said I’m going to take a step back and you started working with people who are more knowledge. You have the luck to find these people at such an age, which is amazing.

I mean, I’m teaching and I’m coaching riders who are 4547, so 8 They’re like how much? Yes, why? I didn’t know this. I could have been well, sorry, you know what I mean? Yeah.

And I’m like, yeah, I find this amazing to work with, but you need to be able to explain it is. It yeah, no, for sure. And that that’s one of the things is that teaching in general, my, my husband, he develops AI, He’s a tech guy and he makes a lot of comments because now everyone uses ChatGPT or Claude or whoever. And he goes, people are going to have to get really good at communicating because you might think you have explained the whole problem of something, but you’ve only actually explained 10% of it. And the, and then the AI is not going to understand.

But I think it’s the same with trainers in that trainers kind of understand a lot about feeling and about producing feelings, but then being able to verbally explain that to someone that doesn’t have the same level of feeling creates this gap of someone thinking, OK, I tell them to keep their legs there. But like, I don’t tell them that in order to keep their legs there, they need to soften their seat bones. They need to move this shoulder to the outside. They need to like, it’s just I’m focused on this thing because I know it maybe gets better when I do, but that’s such a small part of the whole equation. And yeah, so, but there’s also this quote that I’ve referenced for years and it’s you fix the horse, the horse gets better, you fix the rider and all the horses get better.

And and that’s the amazing one. I have to remember that one. And if I’m alive, I’m going to steal this one. I love this one. It, it’s so because I had one of my first ever clients, I, I think I was like 18 or 19, like no business really being an instructor.

And she, this kid had multiple horses. She had like 2 ponies and a horse and like they were all three so different. And you know, I was constantly trying to get her to stop pinching with the knees and try to do. And I was like, that’s when I stumbled upon this quote and I sent it to her mom and I was like, hang this in her bedroom or something. So she knows that like as soon as she stopped doing these things, all of her horses will improve.

It won’t just be like back-to-back to back. We’re dealing with maybe different problems, but it’s all from the same root cause. And so, yeah, I think about that quote probably every day because it’s so true. It is so true that’s I was going to actually comment earlier we were talking about the trainers also. I was nearly going to comment.

Most trainers, they look to the horse. Yes, yeah. And they don’t look to the rider. I know one woman dressage woman in Belgium and she says no, no, we have to fix the the horse. And I’m like, yeah, I’m sorry, my dear, but you’re an, I mean elderly woman from typical German dressage.

Yeah, right. I mean, don’t take me wrong. Germany did a lot good for the dressage for same like a lot of nations did a lot of good things. And I mean the modern dressage we definitely know from Germany, you know, aims through Holland and you know, and the evolution. So nothing wrong against that and totally not but fixing the worst first.

Want help you? I mean, it will help, you know, I’m saying this wrong. It will help you, but it will help you in a very short phase. Up you, up the fact that you will stumble on the next problem soon. Yeah.

I mean, that’s it. Yeah, exactly. And your horse breaks down, you get overloading. You get overloading even on the front end, even when people don’t realize how many horses have meant that, do you see? And you see also everyday horses, many horses, you see that people think we are using the course ability by using the hind end, horses seated on his hind end, and we’re riding really good.

How many horses you see that those writers think they’re doing good and the voice is totally loading on the front? I mean pretty much everyone. Thank you. I mean, yes, that’s what I mean. And in shoe jumping dressage a bit less because of course when you’re not against the center line with the head, they did a point.

So yes, everybody writes them against there, but OK, I mean, that’s another way of thinking Often, yes, the head and the neck in the dressage is there, but don’t ask for passage or don’t ask for PF or for a pirate, because then you see the bag going like, you know, thinking away like oops. And then look, he’s really lifting, not using the core, is it? I mean, any show jumping you nearly let’s say and I don’t want to offer React, but 85% go behind the center line is it? I mean, I think that’s even careful sit. Yeah, it’s interesting that you bring up the show jumping because right now in Wellington we have the Winter Equestrian Festival and they basically live stream the courses like every day.

So every morning as I’m drinking my coffee, I’m watching the show jumping or the hunters or whatever, and my mom’s visiting and I’ll be like, do you see like the difference between the forces whose shoulders are just lower than the haunches are and how much effort they have to put in? And then this one horse will come in and it’s just in a balance and it’s just stepping over these meter 55 jumps. Not that if we all ride our horses correctly, they’re all going to be meter 55 show jumpers, but you can just see the difference in like the horse that’s coming to the jump with the shoulders up and the hunches underneath them. They’re going to stay sounder so much longer than the horse who has to freaking hurdle themselves over the fences because they’re not being brought there in a proper balance. Maybe their head is up but like the body does not follow the head and neck.

Indeed. So to give you a comment on that part, so I see and I thought with many show jumpers, I mean high up the top 20 of the world, I talked with the people who are below that as well. Doesn’t matter which level you are, but they I mean you have different styles of fighting and I mean you have more the American way, you have more European more more slower, more faster than people who say you need to really go fast, fast to the jump. Always say I have to go as slow as possible to the jump after, you know, OK, I’m not going to interfere in that part. However, I do have a strong opinion on but very strong in my eyes.

My strong opinion would be very easy. If you don’t have a balance source, stay off the. Yeah, well, and like it gets to a point where speed is almost irrelevant because if the horse is being pushed past it’s natural balance, it doesn’t matter if you’re going slow or fast, you’re just out of balance. And maybe if you’re going faster it’s easier for the horse to get over the fence, but like, it’s not correct. No, I I mean, OK, and then you have what people tell me.

Yes, but it doesn’t matter because you see this horse pants. It’s way more easy to do it this way. I find it amazing when people tell me. Yeah, but we know our horse. I’ve been this horse.

I’ve been training this horse since so many times. Well, if you know, I know how he is. Yes. You know, the perception, How he feels, you mean? But you don’t know.

OK. You don’t. You do know his natural, his habits because you see him every day and your room will see him every day. And so yes, you do know the natural habits. That still is not giving you the right to say I know how he is because you don’t know anatomy, Physiology, Physiology, let alone by mechanics of your horse.

I mean, so again, nothing wrong. I mean, if you never studied it. And bio mechanics is an ongoing study. So I, I understand that. And I’m not saying that riders should know the full bio mechanic story because it’s an ongoing study, but it is very, I mean, I watched some serious good riders like Auslan Singh, like we have a lot of very good riders and United States also has a lot of good riders.

So I watched a lot of them up to a lot of them. And these are things like for example, how should I say these people, they say, OK, you know, like some of them go slow but balanced. They go into a warming up arena in front of a show jumping course. They will go that slow, but with the back voice up with core stability, I mean, and whose hamstrings of the horse are there now? The hamstrings of the horse will make sure that your back goes also down or up.

If you don’t have, if you have two tight hamstrings, you will put your pelvis in the other way. I mean, and so your as I joints will be stuck. And you know, that’s a wing, that’s a process and it’s a chain reaction. Well, but these people, they really know you do it slow and they jump over a one in a warming up offences will go in the show jumping course 160 and in the jumper one 65170. They jump over 20 centimeter like and they jump at the horse.

It’s not just walking over it, over it maybe 40cm or 50 centimeter, they jump. But control, yeah, very controlled as in the horse can move forward, can come out of its shoulder, the horse can use its flow. So and then obviously typically in the show jumping as well, they go, OK, the last straight fence they gonna do in front of going into the course, OK, that’s 1m, let’s say 41 meter 45. And they go in a very slow way again, but controlled with the core stability. So all the people will say, yeah, but the back has to be developed.

No way the back will develop itself if core muscles or activate yes, so and that’s where I get often very frustrated as you can also in my Internet, you know, and but I do love it. I mean that’s part of bio mechanics and and riding and being fun. I love that that’s that really helps people to move forward. Yeah, for sure. And it’s interesting what you’re saying about the hamstrings because I know I do a lot of work with off the track thoroughbreds.

And so they’re, they’re made to like push, right? Like and not in the sense of like sitting underneath them and pushing like up and out, like they’re made to like dig into the sand and thrust. And so a lot of them will come off the track with these like triangle butts. Yes, absolutely. And I go, OK, like, there’s so much that has to happen, but the first thing that has to happen is that we need to soften the back of this horse’s legs because you can’t even poke in there.

And as soon as you do that, you get this nice step through the hind legs, and all of a sudden, a whole lot of stuff becomes way easier. But if you never. Yeah. And if you never take the time to unlock that, then you have a horse who you need SI injections and they need this and they need that. And you know, when one of the things when I worked for the trainer who taught me about bio mechanics, she was like, maybe you get a horse that needs a joint injection, she goes, they should probably only ever need one joint injection in their life because you get the injection, you make it easier and then the training supports the correct way that that horse should get and it that.

So I went from that to a trainer who, you know, if there was a training problem, she’d inject the horse. And I look back now and I go, Oh my God, like there’s so many things that we probably could have done in just like the day-to-day stuff that would have, you know, saved a lot of people, a lot of money in these joint. Injections I had absolutely. I think, I think if I, if I ask you the question as an active rider, Samantha, what, what, how many money injections etcetera did you invest? And if you now look back and you know if you would know if you would have known at that moment about the bio mechanics, how much issues you would have solved within couple of months time?

Oh, at least $1500 on one horse. You know, like it’s a substantial amount of money and that’s not even including the diagnostics to figure out what needs to get injected. Sometimes that looks at your horse and they go this thing needs some help. And you know, I had one of those And so but that was actually the horse that I was lucky enough to end up with the bio mechanics trainer. And so we really were able, I mean, I, I had like 6 month photos and the difference and like just the roundness of the body was so insane.

And most of the training, and this is what I don’t think people understand, most of the training was about me. It wasn’t like, you know, if, if there was a correction that needed to be made with the horse, it was probably my trainer screaming hind legs at me because I wasn’t keeping a horse forward enough. It was all about improving my posture and my position and my suppleness, which allowed the horse to then move the way it’s supposed to move. Absolutely. And I, I really love that you’re really pushing on the fact that it was because of you.

I love that fact. I mean, there’s so many people. So sometimes with some riders, I dare to say, if it’s really difficult for the horse, if it’s really difficult, sometimes I tend to say, well, you know what, you go now with one seating bone a little bit to the outside of your saddle or the other little bit more on the middle of the saddle, fine. And then you feel the horse suddenly getting it. Then you want to gently rephrase the alignment again, hoping your horse stays there.

I mean it’s a little trick as an in between path between goal because sometimes the rider doesn’t know exact how to get it. So I would use that as an inter goal to get it more easy for the horse and that gently ask the horse with you to come back to the normal thing. And then they say, yeah, but I can’t write like this. I said, so you don’t muscle and then govern like are you here again with I don’t have muscle that muscle. You have gym muscles.

I call that yes. You don’t have friends. So. Are there when you first start working with a rider or a horse and rider combination, is there like do you just show up and watch them ride and then you kind of start working through things or do you have them run through like a checklist? Like what does a first session with you like in person look like?

All right, still one of course, upfront we have I have a checklist upfront. So on paper we make a checklist like OK, what are your goals? Do a little bit an intake conversation. What do you want from it? You know, what is all, where do you want to be?

How much time are you able to invest? And it’s not because you have less time that the quality is going to be left to get, but and also make your expectations towards the time you put in. Because if you don’t put time in and I guess you know this yourself, then forget it. Just forget it. And rather than be honest and say and don’t think this will work, people are often upset if I say, and I’m very direct, very straightforward.

I don’t want to bullshit. It’s you. I don’t want to take your time. I don’t want to lose my time. If you’re not going to go for it, if you are interested and you want to and there’s nothing wrong with that, there’s totally nothing wrong.

I’m very open these things. I’ve got clients. I had clients, I still have them as a mammoth therapist, but I had clients on my program who or say, Oh, yeah, we’re going to do everything what you asked. And kids, after six months, they’re not they’re not doing it. And they tell me then almost certain moments.

Yeah, but we won’t. Fine. Hopefully this is a program of a year. You sign in a year. I’m not difficult.

Don’t waste my time. Then I won’t lose yours. You won’t lose mine. OK. I mean, so because they pay mentally, they think they can.

Yeah. Right. And then I’d rather think, fine, you know, I’ve got, I’ve got my jaw and I’ve got loads to do. I’m super happy. I find it set for them and they’ll say, oh, but can we keep having you as a manual therapist?

Obviously I’m not an angry person at all. I’m a positive, very positive minded person. And if you’ve better this way, fine. It’s OK. I mean, it’s fine.

I do have a strong opinion on on that. But if you feel better, it’s OK because it won’t work if you’re frustrated. I become frustrated, yeah. It. Won’t forget it, rather forget it then push through in my eyes.

Yeah. So I read through a checklist in an intake conversation and then you will start. We will start with physical training of the horse. That’s the first thing. Sometimes I ask the person, is it OK if we take this month and next month from 2 from a year subscription, two months that I’m instead of going to coach you on the horse that I’m going to coach you with on the ground.

One manual therapy I’m going to do instead of the horse riding and the exercises and instead of one hour exercises, I’m going to do 2 hours full on basically 3 hours. And if that after two months, most of the time they drilled enough for the exercises, they were enough for the exercises. How to get it? And then I say, OK, fine. Then I let them write and then they like, OK, yeah, I do feel some difference.

I look and I I’ve been seeing before and I’ve been seeing videos from them before before they started and then I see their mate and still think like well, and then we start. Obviously I call them with me and then and these days you have to watch out with hashtag me too because you’re touching them. So I always ask their permission, and then I’m going to put the legs and I’m going to put the core, and I’m going to say I do this now. Use your hamstring. Now have pressure on your stirrup.

Put your heel down. Because when you put your heels down, what happens? Yeah, you pull. I mean, you push the stirrup forward. You push this steel forward, your pelvis is going to collapse.

You’ve got suddenly around the back, around the back. Then suddenly our shoulders will run into the front and the off you go with your position and you’re faster. So I mean and obvious. And then obviously gripping with the adapters will be needed and gripping with the knees because otherwise when your voice moves suddenly you didn’t expect you are going to fly. Yeah, it’s a very, I mean, I, I say it’s very in this way, but kind of yes.

Do you ever notice or do you ever work with clients who maybe have certain fears when it comes to riding, whether that be transitions or jumping, jumps or whatever, and then through becoming more stable in their posture, they actually have less fear because they feel better in the connection or in the riding? Well, actually I think that’s a very interesting question because a loads you I loads maybe let’s say a lot of people have some fear here or there to really say I will. With riders in fear? No. Do I work with riders with some fear here and there all the time?

The difference is, And that I really keep that very, very separate because you cannot do all. I mean, although I’m a trauma therapist for humans as well, I’m bio mechanics and I focus on bio mechanics. However, I noticed that if your core, your hamstrings, your lower leg is all there and your core is there, your posture is on top. That’s your worst one spool that one your horse will stay with you and you will stay with the horse. Hopefully it’s if you, if I noticed this when I was still riding myself, because sadly now the, the time is the, but when I was still riding, I was riding and I mean like we all do.

I mean, we’re not all the time, 100% concentration on top. And you know what happens, Samantha? I mean, come on, everybody does this. You’re with two or three in the arena and you’re warming up or you’re walking in, basically. So what do you do?

You chat, right? And you walk me through each other. Suddenly the gates opens because car is arriving. And the gate goes next to the bushes and next to the hedge. And of course, what does happen?

All three horses in the arena go ballistic burgers go. Of course nothing happens. We take them back and we’re there. I thought Matthias, serious guy, you know, all this and you just was sitting. No concentration, nothing on you.

OK, So I thought, let’s switch on focus. Still be able to kitchen, of course, but for stability, legs, hamster, everything posted. Yeah, 2nd arrives, the same thing happened, the gate opens, the same noises, but the only thing was now two horses start spooking. But mine it’s so funny to see and I this on different different different horses. I tried with many horses have no no posture and no focus and see what happens and have focus.

Of course you can’t say this is evidence based or scientific evidence based material because it’s a practical way of trying things, but I do notice there’s a huge difference. Yeah, I know. I work with a lot of where I live is kind of like a retirement community. And so I work with a lot of older women on their horses and I notice that maybe when they start riding with me, they’ll have a lot of insecurities. Maybe they’re afraid of certain random things, but the more stable they become in their posture and in their bodies, the less they worry about those fears.

Because I think they feel just, I mean, if you’re always gripping with your thigh or you’re always pushing against the straps, like there’s a disconnect from the saddle to you. So there’s a disconnect from the horse to the human. And so then I think things feel unpredictable. And more loose, you’re more in the saddle. And so, yeah, go on.

And no, no, no, no, sorry. Go on, go on. But yeah, so I, I noticed that as they, they soften and start to really ride, even if the horse does the thing that they were afraid of because they were connected, there’s that fear didn’t play as much of A part. So I was just wondering if you had kind of seen some of the same in clients that maybe you worked with. And it kind of sounds like even in yourself, you’ve noticed that.

OK, well, if I’m connected and I’m doing the things that I’m supposed to be doing with my core and whatever, even if things happen, I’m in a place to physically handle it without, you know, catastrophic. Yeah, the consequences, yeah, that’s true. But never know. I mean, thirdly, so I’ve been, well, I’ve been working with these things. So for example, many years ago, this woman sadly has a lot of physical issues.

I mean, she had a lot of surgeries. She is in a lot of pain medication day in, day out even. So sadly, sadly and because of medication, she became overweight, really overweight. She has double her 333, triple hernias. The she has, I mean in a very bad state.

She said to me, Mathias, I want to write. Whatever. It’s one more last time, but I won’t write. I mean, she owns horses. Yeah, in dressage.

So we put her on an older school mouse, one of her own horses. But of course, you still have to ride to get that, to get it out. And how would you get the result from it? I mean, there are years just sitting on it because it’s a school master. It’s not another way.

It’s all right. And she’s seriously overweight. I mean, and she says please help me. And I mean, she’s one of these women, one of these riders who can get a horse hunt, you know, you. Know a little bit of an electric seat?

Yeah, absolutely. And OK, not completely with how it should be because her body and her posture and and her back issues and of course no core stability, nothing. She still tries, which I find amazing when you try. You’re welcome with me, right? Although I might not be agree with how it goes and when you try I will always support.

When you don’t try, I will get it. I said thank you, I don’t need it. Yeah, so she tries and the horse went into PASAR, goes into PF horse went into collected mode. And this woman as and this might sound rude to a lot of your listeners and maybe also to you, but she was at least 120K. I mean, and she’s tiny, yeah, yeah.

I mean, but of course there’s also was a big horse, so perception in it. But although she has an electric seat and although she knows how to get her light, these are two main important things if you’re overweight. I mean, the electric is one thing, but how to sit light, even if they’re overweight, that’s still OK. I mean, if you know how to go light. Yeah, yeah.

I think one of the most great things I saw, and I have not that much to do with polo, but I’m around with polo as well. This manager from a team, I mean, you know, the Argentines. Yes. They love bread and meat. Yes.

I mean, well, there’s now from one thing that you easily and they love of course alcohol and dramatic. I mean, there is a good thing to become overweight. Yes. I mean, everybody, his or her thing, no worries with that. But that guy, seriously, he was a manager of a polo team and he had people riding the horses, training horses, but he was managing it all.

Certain when a horse doesn’t go or one of the riders pilots has a problem, he will go on the horse. Old coat is overweight and he knows exactly he’s overweight. He knows it. He said I wouldn’t get on it if not needed, but the moment he gets home, and I was so surprised when I saw it for the first time, He sits like a feather, full feather. Like how can you?

I mean, you’re at least 121 hundred 3100 like I mean and you are arriving like this. Congratulation. Yeah, I had OK, use it of muscling. OK, I’m not. Then don’t go into ball mechanic part.

But amazing You don’t disturb the horse. Congrats. There’s nothing else I can say Yeah, I’m not happy with bio mechanics. I’m not happy with certain things. OK, fair enough.

But light, light and polo is another system of training. I’m not going to go into that. And that also when you know how to sit light and you have an electric seat. And like this woman had in the dressage. And of course, the worst knew every command.

And then my training with now use more disc muscle. Now use more disc eating. But now make sure you have your pelvis there. Now keep your shoulder there. You know, by mechanically adjusting her and telling what she, the horse went into.

Yeah, without any hesitation. Yeah. And that is amazing to see. Yeah, for sure. Satisfaction, yes and that you will have felt the first time as well.

And now I guess and you will, you will probably be confirm me when you ride now, when you get a client’s horse in and then train also when you get a client’s horse in who is completely blocked in the back, completely triangle shaped highland, which obviously goes most of the time hand in hand with the blood back or at least a pole in the neck and probably concrete mouth. So we don’t, I don’t want to, you know, be too harsh, but it’s kind of this is it, right? And the way you get that, obviously you’re not going to go to your client. What the hell is this? You go like, oh, here we go again.

Yeah, it’s fine, you know. But what I want to say is if you have biomechanically the good structure yourself, then in 45 minutes of writing, or that that’s often the first time it might take 45 minutes, you feel the worst is getting it. You start to be already loosen. 45 minutes of writing what the speed of adaptation? How flexible can a hole be?

I guess that is an amazing part and you as a rider trainer and riding clients horses, producing horses, I guess you by now know like well, OK, retraining horse, it might might still be difficult. I’m not going to say that, but it must feel amazing to you. That fine, no worries. We had some control. I think that on its own, it’s amazing.

Yeah, no. And it’s once you, I was actually just having this conversation with a client and once you’ve dealt with a horse that has because I I do a lot of off the track thoroughbreds. So they all kind of, although they’re all a little different, the system to get them to a place of suppleness is kind of the same. And so I know, you know, I this client’s horse literally break or hawk. So I was like the fact that this horse is even getting ridden is amazing and whatever, but I was like these next six weeks are going to be real.

Trust the process six weeks because it’s not going to look, you know, glamorous and you know, like it should be going into the competition arena. But at the end of those six weeks, you’re not even going to recognize the horse with the saddle law or the walk that you have underneath you when you get on. And, and so it, but it goes to show like horses are so adaptable. We’re like, sometimes I’ll have a client show up with a horse that has this problem, this problem, this problem. And actually I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t want clients to tell me.

I mean, if your horse has a rearing problem, maybe let me know. But like, I don’t even want to hear the issues that the horse has because I know when I get on the horse, almost none of those are going to be the issue. And. Well, can I? Well, I look to these things different when clients talk to me or my math therapy or whatever.

So what’s that issues here, there and there? I tend to allow the client to tell their story. It sounds very rude to the client and I’m very sorry if my clients are listening as well, but but however, I didn’t let them tell me ever what they know. I’ll listen, effectively listen to it. I’ll put it in the back of my head and I will feel myself.

Is he I I do allow the history, then meet the sight and then and then I’m going to look to what I feel. And then when that my feeling or my observation, my ananesis and their history forms a connection, then of course, it’s even more powerful. But otherwise just go on my enemies kind of the same like I guess what you do. Yeah, no, very similar. And sometimes those problems are rupped because I do most of the riding.

So but when I see the client get on the horse, I go, that’s why you feel XY and Z thing. And so it’s probably a lot more common in in your line of work to see the the combination together and being like, oh, Yep, that’s why they see this or feel this or whatever. Where sometimes I get on the horse and the horse is like, Oh my God, you’re not death gripping the right reign. I can just look forward. And so that’s a little bit the like my observation of it a little bit is when the rider and it goes back to when the rider lacks the awareness that they even are holding this rain harder than they’re holding this rain.

Or, you know, maybe it’s that this shoulder is back further than the shoulder that these problems arise where when I get on and I run through my checklist of are my seat bones good? Are my legs hanging and my square with the horse that those problems just don’t even show up? Other problems, weakness problems show up, but the tension doesn’t necessarily show up. Yes. And I find it so funny you mention when I go through my own checklist, I find this amazing because very strange enough I often say to my clients when I’m coaching them, OK, checklist, think about who said this?

Are you there? Is your core activated? Think about this. So go to your checklist. I find it’s still this stage the same.

Yes, it’s so good to have a set thing that you come back to because I’ll do the thing where I show up at a work show and I see someone riding, you know, maybe Boyd Martin is riding his horse in the arena. And I go, oh, OK, I’m going to start doing my horse exactly the way Boyd’s riding his horse, which is like number one thing do not do when you get to a show. And so when I have my checklist, I go, OK, it’s great that, you know, this person’s over here doing this and whatever, but I have my thing that I can come back to and it makes everything feel a little bit better. And then when you do that on the day-to-day, it doesn’t give you the opportunity to kind of screw things up too much. It’s like you say, when people are there in the arena doing other things, I mean, I’m happy for these people that they do and I do my thing.

I mean, I’m not saying they’re wrong. I’m not saying they’re right. You your thing. And I do my thing. And I know with my checklist, I’m there.

I know. With my checklist, I know how I use my muscles, how to exactly posture and use put up my muscles, what to do with them, how to use my hamstrings, how to really have my core in place, how to have my chest bone open, how to have my neck up. I mean, how to align your own body on the saddle. And then we didn’t even say talk said anything about how a saddle influences your posture. Yeah, right.

Or wrongly. And then, of course, don’t even mention the horse. Yeah, I mean, so it’s and I love. And at the moment I’m really working on that. I’m really for now I’m 23 years, two years working with this and sadly in my job you’re working on your own, sadly, yeah, I have got already for the past 10 years, 12 years that I work around the world with veterinarians.

I work from the start, I’ve been working with that, I’ve been pushing that. And in the really start, in the early days when I just started, I went with veterinarians on round help them seeing what they see, talking to them, issues. You know, as a manual therapist, I went one day a week with a veterinarian on brand to see what’s wrong. It’s really helped me a lot in my education. And but now more and more like I’ve got even veterinarians who become my client.

It’s amazing. That’s awesome. So even for their own horses, like, and then they tell me like, I guess maybe you also need to coach me a little bit. Yeah. OK, no worries.

I’ll do happily help you. No worries. Like, hello. Shouldn’t you know by mechanics? And if you know by mechanics, shouldn’t you then be able to transform this for yourself?

I mean, I mean, I’m not going to say anything, but this is I mean, the first time I was only 20, I was, I think 2423. So do know more about the stop sport. I started riding once a week guess. Of course I was starting my business as a wait this woman who is a trainer and her ex-husband was in top spore and she was training all the horses at home. Actually so good and she said to me.

So I started training there. I started riding horses one day with and I knew she would, she, she would tell me things. So we made an agreement and I started riding there one day a week and I was in Belgium. Obvious. Yeah.

And her husband said to me often in French, because it was on the French side of Belgium and I live on the Flemish or lift on the Flemish side. And she her husband would say in French, take that bridle. So I would go for either Hackamore, either Pelham, you know, and the more strong bridles and I would go against him and I would say no, I know my hand is not stable enough for such a bridle. Then he would say ask my wife and I would go like thank you. What did that?

My husband said that and I said no OK good thank you. And she understands also bio mechanics. So and that’s the reason. And she because of my background of anatomy, Physiology, pathology and bio mechanics, she then taught me how to write and with explain things. And as of my background, I would think, you know, yeah, easy.

Like now. I mean, if I tell you, of course we don’t have. There’s no, there’s no visuals in this, you know, you know, every person, I guess nearly every person to every person in his life when they were young, when they were kids, Mom or dad would have said stand up straight, sit up straight. And we would all be like, Jesus whining around. Yeah, yeah, everybody would have.

I mean, and like, oh, please, not again, Mom, not again, Dad, please. So much. Yeah. And for sure that’s one. When I was 18, I wasn’t standing straight because I wasn’t confident.

And then I pushed up myself straight because of my background with anatomy, Physiology. So it helped me. And now people say yes, but for you it’s too easy. You stand straight all the time. Yeah, I mean, this is a patient of my body, sorry to say so, but it people are like yeah, but how?

Because I use a core. I’m, I’m a very thin, I mean, I have very, I don’t have bulk or mass. So for your listener, for the listeners to describe, I’m a very thin person. Very, I don’t have a lot of mouths on me Anyway. I’m a certain moment in another country in Africa.

I walk over the beach. I’m walking there because I was there for work, but I have one hour. So I would go on the beach in the morning, 7:00 AM, and I walk there in a beach or you know what else on our beach. And you know, this African man, black mostly. Well, muscle because they take big care for it.

And he comes to me. Or you’re enjoying your holiday and without. Yeah, Yeah. You don’t need to know. I’m here for work.

That’s fine. Yes. Thank you. And how are you? Good, Good, good, good.

And what do you do for work? I’m a mental therapist. I always have back pain. And I thought it’s everywhere. They say, I mean, I don’t work.

Jesus, you know, I’m here, you know. But anyway, I said, well, because I see you guys training and that had nothing to do with horses, isn’t I said to me, well, I guess I was walking without measure. The guy says to me, yeah, but you don’t have any muscle like all right, no worries. Hey, it know how African people with all respect to African people, but especially the younger people, the young men who are well tuned in their body is because it’s a bit macho. It’s in their culture.

There’s nothing wrong with it. And they go like you don’t have any muscle, said look, and when you say you have back pain means you train wrong. Like said go and lay down on the beach. And so I make the beach flat. He goes and lay down said if I put my fist in your stomach and I push down, I guarantee you I told him 15 seconds and you can’t hold it anymore.

I mean, and we’re talking, we’re in a country that there is maybe one gym, so it’s not a big thing. So they use like things outside tools where they find, you know. And he says, yeah, yeah, yeah. So think is the Plan B 15 less than 15 seconds. I can’t hold it.

And my weight is just below 60K, so really lightweight. Yeah. So my butt, I know how to use my core. So yeah, I can push more, but and he goes to me and like, yeah, but I wouldn’t do do the same with you now because you don’t have muscle. Fine.

But my back is flat on the beach. I what I didn’t tell him was that his back was not flat on the beach. Sorry, not going to fall on the secret immediately and they went like and he really pushed that with this all this weight and I that was more than 60K that we were like how like this is called training. My dear friend went like how it I see you guys pulling yourself up wrongly. Look, when I look to your arms, he says you have no muscle on your arms, right?

Let’s do this. So you know, being a little bit macho, little tiny little bit. So he went 1234 up 7. He went like, I can’t anymore. That’s it.

You have to do it correctly. So I am in a position that is and seven, he was dead with I know I can do maximum 11 or 12. I know maximum, really maximum, maximum, I mean 9. I start to really go slower. You know that feeling where you think like, oh Jesus, the battery is dead?

Yeah, and you’re like, crap, I have to pull myself out of this. What happened? Yes, So I went like 123456792. I said I do bother you easily without you telling me. I have no muscle, but like, OK, can I train with you?

And this was just a random guy, so, you know, horse. But it’s funny how you come across all over the world. Yeah. These things which I find so interesting. Amazing.

Yeah. Because it’s not about how much you weigh. Yeah, obviously being overweight is not good. Being underweight is also not good. But depending on how much you weigh, not nothing about that, but how you use your muscle, how use your core, how to use your posture.

Because I’m 1 meter 80, I don’t know in the United States what that would be. 6 or 1/6, No 6. Probably a little over 6 feet. Yeah, 6 feet. So anyway, and what happens is I walk on the mountain.

My brother is what, 1 meter, 94? So he’s 14 centimeter taller than me. I mean, he is walking with me on that mountain and I walk faster than him. That’s strange because his legs are longer than mine and I go faster because I use bio mechanics. So when I’m on a horse I use bio mechanics help me make it more simple to do what I have to do on a horse.

Yeah, no, totally. Well, this has been such a great conversation. I feel like we covered so much about the importance of why we need to hold ourselves a certain way and how to best help our horses. How do people find you? Follow along with what you do, All of that good stuff.

So people can find me on either my name, Matthias Agnesians. So Matthias, at move#2intheright.com, I will give you my e-mail address so maybe you can get on or you know. Yeah. So move #2 in the right, that’s where you can find me or on LinkedIn, Matthiasagnisms, or of course, Facebook, Instagram, right? I mean, I’m everywhere basically.

But Move to right is my, is my brand. And there you can find everything from manual therapy up to the coaching, the exercise. I’ve got a full program ready for you to be to get started and to use the correct muscles. And I really can tell you, and I guess you will confirm that for yourself as well, that if you really do it, it’s really changes your right. Yeah, for sure.

It really changes the pain in your body. Yeah. I don’t know if you noticed that. Oh, definitely. Suddenly you don’t have pain anymore or I mean when it’s of course yeah, yeah, yeah no to have not that problem but I mean when it’s not that much and you’re right with good posture goodbye mechanics your pain decrease with minimum 75% Yeah, I can nearly I’m not going to guarantee you, but I nearly.

Excellent. This is I think one of also one of the key things in writing. Guess if you have less pain you will tense less. Yeah, be lost, guarded. Yes.

So, you know, absolutely, Samantha, thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you so much for joining me. Can I just say one more thing? Yeah, or else. Well, also which might be of your interest to you and to your listeners on the 28th of March, and I know it’s European time zone, Brussels time zone, I run a conference on bio mechanics and nutrition on www.eb at conference.com.

And it’s also streamed online so you can follow. Of course I know when it starts you still are all asleep. Of course, if you do an online tickets you can rewatch later. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for.

We have, sorry. No. I’m sorry. Amazing speakers. We have Doctor Sue Dyson.

Oh, excellent. We have Yogi Shop with Top Ferrier from the UK, we have Doctor Mariceline Hutat who is feeding nutritionist University of Ghent. We have Doctor Elsman and Brando, who is a neurosurgeon for humans, and myself as a manual therapist by Mechanicus and so talking about all these things, posture and mechanics. So an amazing day. I’m really looking forward to one of my own, one of my first organized conferences.

And yeah, that’s the way you can find it as well. Excellent. Yeah, we had Doctor Sue Dyson on the podcast a few months ago and she’s amazing. Oh yes, absolutely. This this woman, she is for me.

Wow, I really have to say what she knows how ships. Yeah, things. That is amazing. It’s amazing. Well, thank you.

So much. Learned too much from her. I know. Thank you all so for inviting me. Yeah, really very happy that I was here to talk with you.

Yeah, very conversation. And I wish you also all the best. One more thing before you go. I’ve put together a course called From Stiff to Supple in 28 Days. It’s six ride along audio lessons.

You pop in your earbuds and I coach you through exercises that actually translate to a softer, more responsive horse. If your horse braces their transitions, falls on the forehand, or just feels stuck, this is built for that. There’s an audio only option or if you want accountability, the 28 day challenge tier gets you into a private group with me plus monthly zoom calls. Only 30 spots for that one. It’s in presale right now, 40% off everything and the code is applied at checkout that ends March 14th.

Then it goes to launch price. All of that is in the link in the description below.