RERELEASE: Will AI Make Dressage Judging Fair? - Inga Wolframm

So yeah, if you wouldn’t mind kicking us off by telling us who you are and what it is you do. OK, right. So I’m Inga Wolfram. I’m Professor of Sustainable Christianism in the Netherlands University of Applied Sciences Von Allenstein. And thanks for so much for having me on the show.

When people ask me what is it that you do and you know, sustainable questionism, what is that? Well, it’s a bit like how long is a piece of string? Because essentially sustainability, it’s a really big word with lots of interpretations and lots of different meanings. But essentially what I try and do is I tried to research and very much applied research. So we’re going out into the field and sort of seeing what it is that we can do to make sure that we make our sex out our industry and really like our word, our, you know, the horsey world, future proof.

And because I have to make choices, which I don’t really like because I like everything. It’s just it’s my it’s my, it’s my biggest issue. And my greatest strength is that that I that I get excited just about everything. My friends, there’s sort of joke that I get excited about a brick wall. Yeah.

As long as I can sort of see the benefit I do, but I essentially, I sort of divided my research chair into, into 3 pillars, if you like. So I think we’re going to talk primarily about the first one today, which is, you know, sustainable horse rider interaction. But then focusing in particular on the human, you know, and, and I say human deliberately, you know, there can be riders, both are judges, trainers, the whole sector. And I look at it from a from a technician behaviour change point of view. My own background is I’ve done my PhD in sports psychology and equestrian sport.

So I’m very much into the human in the horse human relationship. I have a second pillar that really looks at, yeah, sustainable businesses in the equestrian world and that is very much driven from from the from the conviction really that without our yards, you know, be that riding school, be that delivery yards and any other equine businesses really that sort of support the sector, we won’t be anywhere. So we really need them. But what we see in the Netherlands is that financial sustainability is really big thing. Obviously also, you know, there’s also other aspects of sustainability, but what we consider is that I think as as an equine sector, very much, we try very much to be inclusive, but sometimes also at the risk adds the value in what we do.

Yes, because we’re so worried that people might sort of say, oh, we yeah. But, you know, horse riding, it’s an elite sport and, and there is, there are lots of different values attached to it, social values, you know, that the interaction between horses and humans, you know, what they, what they do for us, the, the, the interconnection in the local environment, What, what the, what the riding school livery yard can do to support, you know, rural communities, that kind of stuff. And, you know, and there’s a value attached to it, which is not always tangible, but I think as we need to make sure that that that we don’t that we don’t undervalue what we do, but fear of of not being inclusive, you know, and there’s obviously also the sustainability aspect to it that, you know, if a yard owner doesn’t have enough money or doesn’t earn enough money, can he or she give the care to the horses in his or her charge? Yeah, it’s quiet. It’s a.

Huge topic of this podcast is that you you want the people taking care of your horses to be paid well so that they’re not thinking about other things when taking care of your horse. Precisely. You know a lot of it. And I know we’re going to be talking about something different, but in light of this, one of my students, she did a, a wonderful study and, and we’ve just submitted the the follow up on on this. We were looking at sustainability in grooms, you know, where we investigated.

OK, so, so because we also know that that, you know, grooms are leaving the industry and, and what are the barriers and what kind of interventions what grooms really need? So, you know, so, and again, this also ties a little bit into the first pillar where we look at behaviour change and the principles of behaviour change, but it also very neatly ties into the second pillar. So as you can see, I sort of try and put everything in boxes just otherwise I sort of lose track of the rule. But that sort of shows that that, you know, to be able to care for our voices, there’s lots of different aspects that we need to look at. But what I what I try and do in in everything that I do that I also try and sort of take a step back and look at it from a societal point of view.

Obviously, what can we do to make our horses lives better? You know, how do we need to shape our sector? But also what is our role within society at large? You know, what can we contribute and then not just what do we have to do as a sector because there’s lots of stuff we still need to do, but also what can we contribute to the rest of the world. That’s perhaps not necessarily, and I’m going to have to be really careful how phrases, but that’s not necessarily just about horses, but also about the bigger picture.

And this kind of ties a nithi into Pillar 3, which is the ecological benefits of horse sharks. Because at the end of the day, horses are kept outdoors, you know. Well, yes, sometimes you keep them on a stable. And, you know, here in the Netherlands, when it, you know, when it’s raining or winter, you can’t keep them unless you’ve got lots and lots of hectares with, with also cover horses. Yeah, it’s it’s also not beneficial for the welfare to be outside.

Precisely. But but but you know, when you have horses, you also have to have land to keep them all. You know, the whole, you know, 5 domains, etcetera. But that also means that the way the land is is kept is managed is, is extensive. So it’s it’s non intensive land use, Land Management and saying that that the world is is rapidly using and losing, not using rapidly losing biodiversity.

And that has a lot to do with small landscape features that we’re losing, you know, hedgerows, tree lanes, pool, the. Monocropic agriculture. It’s really screw on with the soil. Precisely. But as young donors, we can actually reintroduce a lot of these small landscape features.

And you know what? And the added benefit is it’s also really good for our horses because because essentially, if you are, if you’re introducing diverse landscape features, you’re also stimulating horses mentally, you know, and introduce a hillock in a field, then I can guarantee you 50% of the horses, perhaps even all of them will stand on it because, you know, that’s what horses do. It introduce hedges that are edible, not poisonous, not very useful. But horses are also browsers. They’re not, yes, they’re grazers, but also browsers.

So introduce different types of forage. Horses will make use of that and we know that that stimulates them. But the added benefits. So, but this is a win win because it helps our horses, but it also shows to the real community. You know what, we are also guardians of the land that we manage and, and in in that sense.

So what what I what I try and do with each of these pillars is I is I sort of I, I try and help the the sector, but it will to sort of position itself as a well as as as being future proof, but also supporting. Yeah. But the rest of society, yeah. Yeah, you don’t want to seem. You don’t want the the sector to seem disposable to the outside of the factor.

Yes, because I, I truly believe that it isn’t. Having said that, there’s also a lot of things within the sector that we need to do. But that’s OK though, you know, because change is inherent to the world we live in. You know, change is, you know, if there’s one thing that’s constant is change. And I really know obviously that I’m in the podcast.

I was, I can’t remember who said it, but I’m sure our listeners might be able to. And that’s OK. You know, I happen to like change. Many people don’t. And there’s also a rational explanation where people don’t.

But we also need to accept that that it is part of part of the world that we live in. But, you know, because we are not an island, we are part of the broader societal development. And that basically means that we also need to listen to the rest of the world, you know, And then we can now talk about social media and the fact that the world’s become ever smaller. But this is also a part of it. You know, we can’t be isolated anymore.

But that means it goes both ways. Yeah, and it’s, you know, in training, I always say, you know, new problems are better than old problems. So at least we’re we may always have problems, but at least we’re we’re trying to work through them and, and move forward as, as a community, of course, people. So I so it’s funny, I actually found you because of Chachi BT. Oh seriously.

Oh dear. Yeah, so I had I’m I’m an audio book listener and I was like doing some some chatting with chatty BT and and I was like, OK, well, I can’t really find any equestrian audio books. You know, can, can you find me some, some authors or whatever that I can, I can pick up their books that are relatively easy to read. At the end of the day, I have like no attention span left. So and, and you got recommended as someone to look into and through me looking into you, I came across this judging bias paper and I so a little bit about my background.

I’m a professional event writer and so Rasaj is an active part of what I do. And yes, I have seen just first hand some crazy scores judges have put out. And the only thing I could trace it back to was, oh, OK, they’re, they’re, they’re judging the person. They’re not judging what’s actually in the rain going on, you know, and, and then you always kind of have it in the back of your mind. And, and I think as riders, we all kind of know judges have their, you know, favourites, but that that’s kind of not the point of our sport.

So when I came across your paper, I was like, OK, I need to to talk to this person because this is kind of crazy. And then you sent me the eye tracking paper, which we’ll get into after. But yeah, let’s let’s talk about dressage judgment. Let’s. Leave it.

So So what? I’m sorry, what kind of got you interested in looking at this topic specifically? Do you know what? This is nothing new. Do you know my first presentation I did on this what it was in 2010 at the Global Dressage Forum.

And this was partly at the time I was invited to do so by the Secretary general of the International Dressage Writers Club. And they, they sort of asked me to, to, to, to, to speak about this. And, and at the time, do you know the whole bias in judging? Yes, it happens in dressage, but it just happens also in just about every other aesthetic sport. And why?

Because, because you know what, it also happens in High Court judges because bias is human. It’s human nature. And so I, what I did at the time is, is that I sort of presented the findings from other sports simply because. Yeah, dressed as judges, as much human as ice getting judges, you know, so, so the principles behind it are exactly the same. And, and you know, and then you sort of dig deeper and then essentially when you when you when you look at how people take decisions, we all think that we just take a decision and that’s that.

But, you know, there’s a there’s a lengthy process that that, well, lengthy in terms of, you know, what happens in your brain, but you know, to also just, it’s a snap decision. But but essentially, first of all, you need to, before you make a decision, you know, an assessment first, you need to perceive it, right. See first, and this is actually quite important. And I think, yeah, in 2010, at the time, I don’t know. It’s, it’s perhaps, I’m not quite sure.

And I’m quite sure that, you know, if there might be some listeners and they’re saying, no, no, we already knew it back then. But at the time, the people sort of felt that judges sitting at different positions around the arena had to have the same score, which I think we’re we’re slightly moving away from that by now. So, you know, so it’s taken 15 years, but you will because people kind of thought, OK, everybody looking at the same was right, a combination should come up with the same score. But I think by now what I’m hoping, unless I’m overly optimistic, I think by now we sort of realized that it is actually quite normal to see different things when you look at those from the front versus jump side. Both makes sense.

Think of a halt if you’re if you know if, if you’re judging, if, if the judge is sitting at sea and there might be 1 hind leg, perhaps slightly out. But if the horse is exactly straight, you won’t be able to see it as a judge. You also won’t be able to see not not as easily. You know what the outline of of the head neck position is a bit, but you can’t, you won’t be able to see it to quite the same extent of the judges sitting at B or E. Because, and while I’m talking about this is because this is the very first step in the decision making model that first of all, before you assess anything, you have to perceive it.

OK, so and then, and this is only positioning, but you also have to be able to perhaps you’ve just looked down or never something happened, you weren’t, you know, you really see it properly. So, but as long as we assume that, OK, that’s that. Then the second step is that a judge or anybody else assessing something has to be able to categorize what it is they’re seeing. What I mean by that is the first step to decide is what I’m seeing a shot, a canter, whatever now and I, I always use my lovely husband to illustrate what I mean by this. I’ve always ridden warm blood horses, but it’s 2 1/2 years ago I bought a Spaniard, A peori and obviously they’re ate slightly different and my husband is my biggest fan, but he’s not really all that horse.

He kind of, sort of have, you know, he has to, yeah, he has, he sort of has to put up with it. But, you know, he’s not a horse person as such, but he does come along and he’s a radiologist, so he he’s, he’s able to look at stuff. So that’s why I was so quite like him with me. But so he hadn’t seen Marengo all that often. So he was, you’re already laughing.

I can see you laughing. Yurio was coming. So anyway, so he was sitting on the side of the arena and I was cantering and I was, you know, and, and, and Marengo, he’s got this wonderful canter upper armchair. You know, you just kind of sit and you just put it through and you have to do nothing. It’s brilliant.

And I was sort of enjoying myself and I sort of looked across and I said, what do you think? And he goes when he looks lame and, and Can you imagine me sort of cantering? And I sort of, I was sort of bending over trying to look underneath my horse’s belly to sort of see what on earth might be going. Oh, that was the main lane. And he’s like, yeah, because the trot looks really funny.

I was thinking, OK, so this is categorization going completely wrong. Yes, my husband was thinking he was looking at a trot when he was looking at a counter. But from a judging perspective. So this is Step 2. You first need to be able to decide what it is that you’re seeing because only once you know, OK, this is a trot, can you or a counter, can you move on to Step 3, which is essentially assessing whether what it is I’m seeing is good or bad or, you know, sufficient or not.

Because my husband thought it was trust. He then sort of you, it’s the model he had of trust. Ask me out, but whatever. And you know, we, we all have like a like a blueprint in our mind that sort of describes what is good or bad or whatever. And then we sort of match this with what we see.

But obviously if you first categorize wrongly, that won’t match. And this is obviously an extreme example, but but in everything that a judge has to do, they have to sort of first categorize what it is. That’s that they see, you know, what is it? Is it a half class? Is, you know, is it a shoulder in?

I’m hoping that they’d be able to see the difference, but yeah, you you get my drift. And then be able to last step, be able to sort of match this to from all the experiences that they can draw on, from all the mental maps that they have, decide, OK, So what is now good and bad and, and this whole process of how judging works is what is fascinating to me. And it has been for 15 years, because, you know, and I’ve now spent quite a long time explaining to you how this judging process works. AI like to talk them up, but B, it shows how fantastic complicated this is and then on top of that, you have to do this it’s it’s it’s a one off chance. You can’t repeat what you’re seeing.

You know, the horse does a movement and that’s it, it’s done. You have to then decide you’re under pressure both but emotionally is a big word. But but it, you know, depends a little bit on where you’re judging plus on the time pressure because you know that if you don’t take a decision now there’s another movement coming. But imagine this. So you’re saying this horse ride a combination and you have to match this.

This is a combination of two living beings doing very complicated movements and lots of them. And then you’ve also got different types of breeds and, you know, the way they’ll hold their heads and necks and whatever. But you also have this image, this blueprint in your mind that is informed by training, but also experience, You know, depending on where you live, what kind of horses you see, what becomes the norm. And then you have to match this. And sorry, and I don’t actually know whether, you know, our listeners can’t see what I just did.

I sort of, you know, I sort of stuck up my hands in despair, sort of shaking my head silently because, because in many ways, it’s just so very difficult what we’re asking our judges to do. And you were referring to Chachi PT. See, AI can process lots and lots of different things though. Also, if you work a lot with chachi PT, you also know that also chachi PT is also not is, is not fallible or is fallible, I should say. Yeah, makes it.

Also chachi PT sometimes isn’t able to. And on top of that, the human brain per second, we’re being confronted with 11,000,000 bits of information. So information bits, but our brain can only process 50 to 60 bits of per second. So that basically means that you have to take shortcuts. You have to be able to decide what is it that I consider in this situation under the time pressure amount, the most important and relevant information plus that side, is this a 6.5 or A7 or 7.5 or an 8?

Based on what? Yeah. And yes, of course they’re judging lines. But when is something a 7.8 or this symbol like 7.5 or an 8? What is the difference?

Is the fact that, you know, the shoulder is lifted 10 centimeter higher, is that fair? Because the walls might conformationally not be able to do this? The fact that the rider sitting out there totally relaxed and smiling, isn’t that perhaps half a point more? And when it comes to this, when you have to decide, and I’m not talking deciding between a four and eight or A3 and A7 or whatever, I’m talking about deciding between a 7.5 or an 8 or A7 and an 8. If if you’ve got so much information thinking what is more important, what you’ll do is, hey, I saw that rider last week and they’ve finished in the top ten.

Do I give him or her a 7.5 or an 8? Do you know what? Run 8 because and that is much easier than thinking about what’s important is that, you know, and because we’ve got lots of different movements, if you do this several times over, you’ll end up with lots of discrepancy. Yeah. And that can statistically prove by sort of comparing and doing regression statistics and all of it.

So and yeah. So that. Oh, yeah. And then when I got this job, I was asked, can you come on a podcast and talk about judging? And I kind of thought I’ve been out of this research game for a few years, perhaps something that has happened that I missed.

So I rerun the statistics because there’s curious to see because, you know, since I did this in 2010, lots of stuff has happened. But three guesses the bias is still there. So then I guess is there a difference necessarily between bias and I don’t want to say this to sound harsh, but kind of just lack of a better word. Like what’s really the difference between bias and incompetence and. Bias is is is structural in the sense that, you know, a bias is somebody is biased when they’re always making this same.

Well, I wouldn’t want to say error of judgement, but I can’t really, you know, if they’re also no, no, the shortcut, sorry, this is, you know, the bias is if they’re always drawn towards a certain shortcut and in the sense that at what? But to be honest, see, incompetence is a difficult word because because the judges see, OK, if you had a competition and and you just sort of put the man on the street who’s never seen always more, you know, stick my husband on a judging panel. Oh, look, that always looks pretty. But I do think that, you know, the judging programs that we do have, they do spend a lot of time trying to train people. But the problem is because of the complexity of what we do, plus the our own culture, because, you know, you and I, we can now talk in horsey language to each other.

And I think we probably out and even though we are from slightly different cultures, actually, you know, when when you when we first started chatting before you came on the before we, you know, turned on the recording, you talked about tackling on a shoe, which is great because that, you know, in Europe, nobody would talk about, you know, you know, we would talk about nailing on a shoe. Yeah. But it’s just, but this is just. But because I sort of know because she said shoe and yeah, then I I understand. Yeah.

When you and I talk about things like harmony or the horse is really upright, or you know, or the voice is connected or he’s really sitting to an outside person, they’ll go, what, what are they talking about? You and I, we think we understand each other, but The thing is, do we mean exactly same thing? Yeah, yeah, this is, I have this conversation a lot because there’s like this idea that you and someone else can experience the exact same reality and come out of that reality with two completely different outlooks on or like just the way you you interact with life. And like everything we’re kind of talking about really it’s just like a human problem. Like it’s, you know, we’re sitting here discussing this and it’s it’s all like, and you’ve kind of already mentioned the AI, but I have this, this comes up a lot because my fiance works in tech and he’s an AI guy.

And so he’s always like, yeah, I mean, I don’t. Think. Works people are there yet, but you guys really should like. Could use AI for dressage judging. And when I came across, you know, your article, I was like, oh, is this, you know, reason enough for course people to start thinking not that dressage judging in its entirety would get replaced.

But if there are cameras that were kind of in conjunction with the judges and, and they give, you know, because the way AI is trained, I mean, if you have AI specifically designed for judging the outline of the horse, the outline of the rider, I mean, the facial expression of the horse, the, the, there’s so much that it can pick up on that a judge, you know, as we move into the tracking thing just isn’t, you know, fully picking up on. I’m so glad. Well, this is really quite interesting. Perhaps we should have asked your partner to join us because it could be really good to actually talk to because yes or no, Sorry, complete no answer. But what what I really loved about this fact that that, you know, people say, OK, AI is the solution for everything.

The only thing is, is that. But then you went on to sort of say, yeah, but you know, facial expressions, the other and other words. And I think this is key. The problem is that if we were to use AI now, then we’d essentially be using the the, the, the, the, the current guidelines. We.

Don’t even. Know yet what The thing is is, yeah, well, with facial expressions and behavioural indicators, we do know, you know, there is that, you know, and that can always, you know, you can always do more. But there’s, there’s some good stuff already out there that we kind of know that certain behavioural patterns, especially if you add them up together, then, you know, you’ll get a pretty good picture of how, how the was is feeling. You know, colleague Sue Dyson, she’s done a lot of work on this. A lot of other colleagues have contributed to this also on, on, on facial expressions.

But when it when it comes to, you know, how do we assess other aspects then yes, of course, you know, I’m sitting here in my office and I’m sort of looking at, I always have my trusty dressage handbook for judging with me. Yes. And you’re open and of course, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s quite a thick little booklet and it it’s discusses in, in detail or it’s describes in detail what, what you should be looking at. But the problem is it talks in terminology such as, and I can just open it sort of my party trick this, I open another random page and it says absolute regularities maintains this, this completely random to all our listeners. I just literally just open it at any page.

Absolute regularities maintain them. What is absolute regularity T? What is that? Yeah, good energy and expression. The forward tendency of the high inside inside hind leg is dominant.

Yeah, you see you and this was a random and the whole and I’m not knocking it because because it is really good to have this. But I think if we were to use AI, which I think we will need to at some point to support because as you quite rightly said, and you know, and, and there is, you know, science to back this up. We cannot possibly look at everything. Yeah, yeah. But we need to be able to to determine a what it is that we’re looking at.

And we’ve done some very exciting eye tracking work where we’ve asked judges in dressage, but we’ve also just recently finished a study where we asked them some free jumping judges to assess horses and, and, and they gave scores for technique each of or ability. And we were sort of, and you know, and these are because it’s quite time intensive work. So, you know, so we haven’t done lots of voices yet, but this was really quite exciting, which could actually see that with the different elements of the host’s performance, just look at different things. And there was actually a correlation. Yeah, in the sense that, you know, when we looked at, you know, the higher the score, the, the, the longer the focus on particular elements of the horse.

And that’s really exciting simply because it’ll give us an indication. OK, So if we’re assessing ability or, or power or technique or whatever in a show jump address or shows whatever. And this is clearly what, what, what? Yeah, these, these aspects attract our attention because I, I do think that there’s some very knowledgeable trainers, judges out there. But the clue is now take the next step because eye tracking isn’t the the answer for everything, but it makes it, it, it highlights what it is that people are focusing on.

And then as a next step, you can start discussing with them. What is it that you’ve seen here? Explain to me so I can see that you’re focusing on this. So you’re making the subconscious conscious. And I’ve run quite a few workshops by now where I’ve done this with really top level trainers.

And I remember one session with me with a top, top level trainer and he was wearing the eye chicken glass. And afterwards we went back and we had a look at this, you know, and, and he and he was training a Grand Prix horse rider combination and you could see it and though, and they were working on collecting the horse and getting there was more upright, right. And they were doing, I think they were riding shoulder in, they were trying to engage the horse core. And you could see that he was looking at the shoulder, at the, at the forehand of the horse. And he just kept focusing on the forehand.

And, and then at some point he said, yes, that’s it. And you could see his glance very quickly switch to the back end of the horse and switch back to the front. And I said to him, what? What can you sing? Yeah, but the horse is lifting in front.

And I’m like, what? Yeah, but what are you looking at? And And he said, yeah, but I’m checking the shoulder to sort of see whether the horse is coming up. In front. And what he noticed was so he kept looking at the front until that moment he sort of shot a lift and then he quickly checked the hind leg to to confirm what he thought he was being.

And to me, that was literally such an eye opener. It showed me how dressage judges and trainers and needs particularly a trainer, but how they use, how they, how they use visual search strategies. When I first presented my work on eye tracking, again, that was in 2013, the first time, and the results haven’t changed, especially in dressage we see now, but also in. Now I can talk about dressage with more confidence. We’ve done a few pilot studies in other disciplines, but the focus is on the front of the horse and everybody got really well.

If I say excited, then that’s positive. Everybody’s really upset by these spots because they were. Yeah, but how can this possibly be because the engine is behind and I’m like, well, and even 12 years ago, but I keep repeating this because it’s confirmed, you know, and also what shorts Wiley am I thinking? Thank God. This doesn’t mean because this is dodging, you don’t have an awful lot of time and perhaps with AI don’t need to, but in human judging we don’t have a lot of time.

So that basically means you need to make choices. And in a dresser shores, yes, you can spend all your time looking at the back of the horse. But then you might be able to see what the back end is doing. Yeah, but that still doesn’t tell you whether perhaps the contact is OK. But if you’re checking the contact in front or at the front of the horse, if the contact isn’t OK, then you can assume that the back end isn’t OK either.

Does that make sense? Yes, yeah. So. So because, because in addition to the horse being engaged, there might also be issues with the mouth or with the hand of the ride or whatever else. But the front of the horse if, but if, if, if there’s an issue in the front, then then you can see much more, shall we?

You know, because if you’re already checking the back and if the horse is engaged, you still don’t know whether the ride is actually good enough and riding them always, you know, keeping a steady hand or, you know, so, so so the front. And again, this is very much in line with the shortcuts that we also discussed with judging bytes. The only things with judging Bonner is that’s about much about non performance related. But the but the but there’s also visual shortcuts now. And if we’re saying, OK, so there’s visual shortcuts, then that will give us a bit of an indication as to what we as horse people.

And let’s face it, there’s lots of people who are super experienced and they have and they know so much. So it’s actually really important to not because you also asked about competence, to be honest, I do think there’s, well, obviously there’s also people who are not competent, but. You know, at at the top. Level of the sport there are lots of competent people out there, but it doesn’t mean that they’re all competent in their own that they’re all competent in exactly the same way. It took up to us now to draw out what it is they say, and how we define it and what’s good and perhaps you know, what’s what’s less good.

But assuming that we can’t possibly assess everything and that we don’t have the time, let’s focus on that, The bits that we consider most important first of all. Yeah. And help clarify the definitions of things. And do you think that it’s also because I know for certain levels at least in eventing in the States, you can’t judge up to the preliminary level if you haven’t written at the preliminary level, is there is that the same throughout all judging? So these judges that are judging high level competition have also competed or written through that level.

No, I don’t think it’s a very good question actually. But you don’t have to have written up to Grand Prix in order to be able to judge Grand Prix. I must honestly admit that I am not entirely certain as to what the requirements are. You do have to have written to a certain level. I don’t, but I honestly don’t know what that level is.

But I must admit though, I, I do think it is good to have had the riding experience and to be able to, to, to understand what it feels like. Yeah, I don’t think you have to have, you know. You can be a really good, you can be, you can be really good at assessing things. That doesn’t necessarily have to mean that you’re also able to write it yourself, but I think a basic understanding how this whole thing works, yeah, is very useful. At least that like the high performance level, I feel like there there’s so much that goes into executing like, I mean, those Grand Prix tests are crazy.

Now that it’s, I think having the the knowledge of Peter Gray, who just judged the eventing at the Olympics, rode his dressage horse at the five star and did the five star dressage test just to get like a understanding of like the test flow. And, and I, it really was like, oh, you know, I know so many judges who just don’t even ride anymore that I was like, that was interesting. So I, yeah, I, I, I wouldn’t be, I’m not not sure whether you’d still have to be active, but I do because because also, you know, I think it’s, it’s a really good way because, you know, obviously riding is also a physical sport and somebody who who’s who might have ridden in the but they, you know, and there was what whatever reason can’t anymore. Now that doesn’t necessarily we don’t want to lose them to the sport. I think that’s really.

For sure and I feel. But if you bring an understanding of what was on. Yeah, no, for sure. And and yeah, I just feel like it’s plus horses are so different now and it’s really a different sport than it used to be. So it’s, I guess that was also part of the reason that I wanted to, to get you on was it, I feel as though the sports have kind of made a shift and now we’re kind of riding for the judges versus like training and like creating a sustainable way to produce sound forces long term and more so just breeding and training for like a specific outcome.

And like, that’s where I was like, and the eye tracking, you know, I’m, I’m glad that you explained the front end thing, because that was kind of one of my initial impressions was like, oh God, you know, no wonder blah, blah, blah on my soapbox. And, but, but I do, you know, I’ve talked to so many vets and, and they’re, the breeding has become. Let’s make these things way more flashy in the front end. And and you see some of these exuberant movers and like they’re beautiful and and the rider looks good riding them, but like their hind end is out in Texas or out. And you know, I don’t know what the the Europe I get, I get that is, but the behind end isn’t even in the country anymore.

And but but some of these these riders get really well rewarded for that. And you know, and, and that’s. Do you want, do you want another explanation that one for the for the flashy movements? And this is if we’re talking evolution, and this is also, this is really quite tricky, but it’s actually quite nice because I’m not quite sure how often I don’t think I’ve spoken about this very often yet. But if we’re talking about evolution, you know, obviously human, OK, as a, as a, as a, as a species, we’re not very old as human beings, you know, we’re what, 300,000?

Well, somewhere between 150 depends a bit on for when you count and we don’t read. But anything between 150,300 thousand years and that’s nothing. You know, that’s that’s a blip which. Basically means that also in in in evolutionary development. Well, you know, we live in fancy houses and all the rest of it, but deep down we’re still cave people, you know, because because evolution, you know, a species doesn’t really change all that much in 300,000 years.

So, and why am I saying this? It’s because essentially we’re still danger. So being able to preserve our species is one of our primary motives, which basically means that looking out some danger and being able to see danger is really quite an important trait to have now and quick movements. It’s really useful to be able to look at that because it might just be a lion jumping out of the bushes. So what that means in terms of, of, of, of in addition to, you know, it being a useful shortcut because, you know, you can address the front of the horse, but a flashy mover is essentially that lion.

So, you know, the the the fore leg that sort of sweeps out and, you know, does this expressive movement, our eyes are drawn to it simply because this is how we are made as people, because it it’s only a front leg, but it might as well be that while jumping out of the bushes doesn’t make sense. So what happens is your eye is drawn to it and, and, and excitement in that sense. What have I seen now? Wow. And obviously we’ll reward that.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, and I, I feel like the, the reward for that, like we wouldn’t reward it if that wasn’t what the goal was, right? Like the goal is we got the horse sitting enough that that produces A flashier front end, whatever. I guess my, my my approach was more so that we’re now just breeding for that outcome instead of training for that outcome.

No, no, no, I, I, I totally, I’m, I’m with you. I’m just trying to explain why, why those flashy movements also do get rewarded because. Because as a grad, you sort of have to compare, you know, what’s happening. And, and this is the the promise. I’m trying to explain that somewhat.

This this is not deliberate. And this all makes sense. Yeah. Because the human nature, because we’re drawn by the fact that we can’t look at everything. So we have to make a quick decision.

If I just continuously draw to the big movement, obviously that gets water. And hey, you know, if you’re a breeder and you’re breeding dress as shoes and you want to sell them, you’re going to sell the stuff that somebody’s sorry, you’re going to sell the horses that somebody else wants to buy. And, you know, and if you’re spending lots of money on a horse, is it because you’re planning to compete with it, then yeah, sorry. Then, you know, that’s pure economics. You’re going to invest in a horse that already shows the flashing movement.

And 1st, it means that those horses sell for more money. So if you’re a breeder and you’re investing because, let’s face it, breeding is also risky business because you don’t really know what’s coming up and you don’t even know whether it’s going to survive. And then you also have to, you know, feed it for a long time, then you have to put it in training. So obviously what you’re going to do is you’re going to try and invest in something that people want to buy. So so the solution is also is essentially us retraining ourselves to look for the harmony, even though that might be more boring.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Now though, it’s on. It’s going to be, it’s going to be the quote. We need to look for boring and everything to be boring.

Yeah, you’re though, right. Like I, I rode with a trainer and she used to have this thing where she was like, you know, you get to it. The whole point of the training was for the training to become boring and. Yeah. And it is true, like the basics are boring.

And though the IT it’s a it’s almost a form of discipline, like you can’t allow yourself to have that, that response, whether it’s dopamine or whatever from like watching the pretty horse. You have to be like, OK, yeah, it’s beautiful. I recognize that. But also is it tense in the neck? Is it actually engaged behind?

Is it? And that’s where I see all AI would come in and be more helpful. Instead of looking at necessarily, you know, kind of allowing the judge to judge the movements, you can allow the AI to kind of just judge the overall picture. Yeah. And that the whole, the overall picture thing, this is also something that I feel that we sort of need to address because it’s, you know, when I work with eye tracking, everybody says the whole thing.

And then I’m saying, no, you don’t what it is that you can actually see at any given time, you know, stretch out your arm in front of you and it’s, it’s the, the serpents of your thumbnail. That’s as much as what you can actually see. And that sounds weird because we’re sitting here and we’re sort of and, and you see a complete picture, but that’s just your mind fitting in the stuff that you’ve scanned before. But, but this is really quite important also. And also AI will also work like this apart from but, but, but it just means that it sort of that you have lots of different puzzle pieces essentially, and those who stick together.

And I think this is because also when we are training AI, because I’m sure we will at some point. You know, This is why I’m saying when and not if while we’re training, I will, we need to be very, very clear of what it is that we want to see in the separate anatomical regions of the force what it is that we’re looking for. And then how they fit together as a as a as a bigger puzzle. Really. Yeah, it’s.

Yeah, there are. Some like wait lifting apps that if you place your this app and take a video of yourself from the side doing the with it docks you and then finds where in your posture is like the weakness. And I’m like, cool. To me that would be, you know, when I say overall picture, I’m more so just talking about, yeah, the, the biomechanical aspect of of the picture is the horse actually moving in a correct way. And, and that’s where I see all if we can train AI with, with points of reference and say, OK, this is the, the overarching shape we’re, we’re working towards more of a circle than a, than a square rectangle, you know, and because because you don’t, you also don’t want to train AI with the biases that we have.

So it’s. It’s but this you’ve hit the nail on the head and I think that’s really good because we don’t want to. This is why I’m all for AI. And the important thing is so that that that we train whatever AI system we’re going to use as as detailed as possible. And then which would also give us the opportunity to take into account different types to breathe, you know?

Yeah. Because, you know, I have a Spaniard and I’m really sorry. As much as I’ll train, he’ll never have the same extended trot as Walnut will have. Yeah, I ride syndrome as he can’t primarily it’s I’m always fighting that uphill battle. But but yeah, no, exactly.

And they’re just different horses ultimately. Precisely. And yeah, and and being able to. Train an Ari system because that would give us the opportunity also say, OK, so you know, and then they’re they’re looking at the anatomical and and conformational differences between the horses would actually give us a much better one would give us the ability to sort of judge this accordingly. Yeah, and that’s it.

Like I and I really kind of got on this topic because I went from she was a failed FBI dressage horse. So the movement on this horse blew any purpose, bred a bad horse out of the water and I was barely hanging on and she was top five every time. And then I got this, this other horse who is a very cute, you know, for an inventor is a very good mover, but she’s just the little Workman and puts in very Workman like tests and and she never gets rewarded for it. And I’m always like, you know, I’m, I’m trying to confirmation bias myself of like there’s got to be a reason. So it but yeah, I mean.

That’s it, you know, not not flashy, but perhaps in terms of also welfare sustainable, that Workman like test is much more reliable. And, and when we’re talking about training and you know, and really you started with this is, is, is what are we doing this for? But essentially when we sort of when we strip down to the core, isn’t it just, isn’t this whole competing stuff that we just check how the training is progressing, that we’re enabling the horses that we do have in our care that we’re helping them develop physically and mentally within the scope of of what they have naturally. And and so you’re little. Is it a mayor or gelding The Workman like 1.

Mayor. So you, you know, you’re little Workman like work, woman like mayor. Yeah, she’s probably progressing within. She might even be progressing better than the spectacular mover and but that don’t really get rewarded at this point. Simply trace.

There’s the whole boy eyes, there’s the oh look, there’s that leg and wow. And we need to, simply because that’s what our eyes drawn to. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it makes sense.

Like when you take a step back and you look at, OK, we’re we’re always going to have human problems because we’re humans judging other humans, training horses like it’s a very much settled. But yeah, exactly how can we we train our horses in an ethical and sustainable way, compete them in an ethical and sustainable way, and have both of those things not counteract the other one? So I see so and in in many ways it does. It does start hard with how do we assess horses and not just the judges, but also we ourselves, because you know, we are also influenced obviously shaped by what our environment tells us they’re assessing what the judge, what the scores we get. So in many ways it does because this is also what our sports bad.

And at the end of the and again, this is sort of at the core, what is a lot. They’re just lovely to look at. Yeah, yeah. So, so in that sense, right, So teaching ourselves and perhaps also others to, to, to what’s the value, what to appreciate? I think that’s a really important step also towards a sustainable future and perhaps even, you know, reshaping the way that no, not just perhaps, definitely reshaping the way we look at horses.

Yeah, yeah, no. And it’s definitely as a trainer, you know, it’s, it’s easy to constantly be like, well, this isn’t good enough. This isn’t, you know, this isn’t going to get me the score this and have a negative view, not necessarily negative in terms of emotionally being negative, but but you’re always trying to find the the issue to work on. And, and so it kind of changes the relationship you have with the horse. And I think sometimes we just need to get back to like, oh, this stems from war and this is, you know, is, is very much so like there, there doesn’t stuff to be a negative.

You can just enjoy being with the forces and say, OK, today I I feel this and, and you know, we can work on it, but. It’s not a. Problem that has to be solved, it’s it. And very much they’re just changing the the mentality of how we approach working and being with the horses. So, but absolutely couldn’t agree more.

Well, I think that’s a love story. Sometimes it’s just about enjoying what we’re doing, enjoying the moment and just being together with our horses because that’s kind of that’s what our lives revolve around. Kind of the point. Yeah. Well, this has been an excellent conversation.

Thank you so much for joining me. How do people find you? Follow along with what you’re doing, All that good stuff. I do lots of LinkedIn and yeah, just so have a look on LinkedIn. This is what I do most of my posting these days, Obviously the scientific publications, but the minute I have one, it’ll go on LinkedIn.

I’m I’m, I must honestly say I’m I’m not as as avid as I should be, but simply also because social media does also cost time and I feel but yeah, but LinkedIn and and yeah, and these kind of shows awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. All right, that’s a wrap for today. Thanks so much for listening.

If you enjoyed this episode, hit that subscribe button so you never miss what’s coming out next. And if you got something out of it, send it to a friend or share it on social media. Tag me so I can say thanks. All right, guys. I’ll see you at the next one.