Building Better Programs - Tim Worden

I typically kick the episodes off by just having the guest tell us who they are and what it is they do. Yeah, I’m Tim Warden. I’m Equine Sports Performance Consultant. And essentially what I do is work with riders around the world who want some input and want some guidance on the best training practices for their horses. So typically it is people who are already in program, typically professionals, but they may have a bit of a horse or they may have a horse they’re struggling with, or they feel like things could be going a little bit better and they’ll bring me in.

And I guess I have a unique background combining both human sports training theory and equestrian. And what I aim to do is to provide guidance on some different approaches to try if they need to be made connected with an expert outside of my area of expertise. I try to have a bit of a network and to be able to refer them to people who may be able to help, so that’s what I do in the horse world. Interesting. So how does one get involved in something like this and then even in horses?

Yeah, so it’s definitely not what I planned to do. I did ride as a kid, but I completely left horses when I got to high school and it became involved in other sports. First football and then in university. Track and field and weightlifting were things I was most passionate about. I was never a super athlete, but I really enjoyed the theory behind training and going through and reading all of the different approaches that are out there, especially track and field, the way they think.

There’s so much research done on those topics. A lot of the top coaches in the world in those areas have pH, DS and graduate degrees because they are going down rabbit holes, so to speak, and really studying specific topics, which just creates a really rich resource to learn from. And so that was my undergrads. It complemented what I was studying in school, which is biomedical science, but a lot of focus on that isology. And then after my undergrad, I knew I was going back to grad school, but I wanted to take a year off, wanted to do something a little bit different.

So I got back into horses as a group because it was an opportunity to be outside. I enjoy horses and OK, I’m not allergic to hard work. That’s maybe a good trait to have in the horse world. And so got to do that for a year. And then through that I met one of the writers of the Canadian question team named Chris Sorensen, and we started talking about ways that some of this human research could be applied or we could at least experiment with different things to have forces perform better.

So that was really my entrance into it. I’ve been very fortunate over the years to have a lot of opportunities to work with really amazing horses, people and innovation. So that’s molded me. But it’s not simply ever plan to do. It’s I think I developed a skill set that was valuable to people and that put up some doors for me.

So when you say professionals will have you out to help them through some issues, what might those issues look like or be or feel like? Yeah, if there’s an issue, it always starts with the vet, and that’s what I always tell people. Make sure, speak with your care team, your therapist, your vets, your farriers. Make sure there are no red flags for them. But beyond that it tends to be maybe they brought over a horse from Europe that they thought should have advanced more quickly in the program.

It’s maybe stalled out, like they just can’t get it jumping to the height they want or to the level of they had wanted. Sometimes they’ll be more related to technique or certain movements, the horse just struggling to execute that could be a strength deficit or a lot of times it’s just confidence that the horse, if it’s failed at something enough times, it really doesn’t trust his body anymore. As I’ve just brought in as a second opinion to look at it and to try to guide on this. Personally, what I’m seeing with the tools that I use. So I use a lot of video analysis like that’s what my entire graduate career was, a lot of kinematics.

So looking at how my grad work was humans move, but I think I have a good understanding of just biological movement in general. And then working through that with the horses and saying, I think there are probably weaknesses here based on how they’re trying to accomplish certain tasks, developing programs to address that. And then the constant experimentation to to see, is that actually, if you make these changes, is it actually putting the horse in a better position? Or do we need to continue to innovate and evolve and to try different things? And so I guess we can start in the sense of how can I tell if my horse is fit enough to do the job?

How can I tell the difference between a horse that maybe needs more conditioning versus maybe needs more recovery versus something something along those lines? Yeah. So I always tell people it starts with the personality and having a good sense of how your horse is in the stable and under saddle and on the ground day-to-day and looking for changes within that. Like I think if the horse is pretty level, it’s pretty happy. Usually that indicates that you’re not overtraining and like it doesn’t have a recovery deficit.

If the horse is pretty level Monday through someday, happy to go out and do the task, that’s usually a good first sign that maybe it’s worth investing a little bit more in the training program and looking at that. Other things as well. If you have a horse that can go out and perform well but for short periods of time, that indicates I guess a bit of an endurance issue. Even if it’s a shorter event, like show something where it’s just 7 to 80 seconds. Most of the time they had the first couple of jumps are really good and the horse starts to get strong towards in the course indicates that just can’t carry its body well throughout the duration.

And that’s a good sign that that you can invest in training in terms of recovery like personality changes are good for sign for that. Also the horses struggling with nagging illness or injury just little things that constantly pop up. That’s another good sign that you’re probably just doing too much too soon with divorce. And yeah, like, I think as well, if you’re someone who is interested in a bit more of the scientific approach, like there are fitness tests that you can do, especially out of Germany. They’ve been there about some researchers out there, especially in inventing who publish a lot of data on fitness tests for elite level horses.

And even if you don’t have an elite level horse, it’s interesting to look at how the horses respond to certain work. Those papers will tell you exactly the fitness protocol or the testing protocols that they use. And you can adapt something for your own horse to maybe test the every two months just to see where your horse is. If it’s constantly proving, that’s a good sign. If it’s stagnant or if it’s decreasing, that again be a bit of an issue with recovery.

So it’s really a multi factorial issue. There’s never like one one thing you can focus on so much if it’s just understanding your horse and is your horse responding in a way that makes sense for the exercise. If you have a training program that was really designed to push a horse or to develop a horse over the last month, and instead the horse got cranky and agitated, that’s probably an indicator that the program was too much and it needs more recovery time built in. So I was having a podcast with a human psychologist and we got talking about active versus passive recovery. Is there such a thing with forces or is it all always active or always passive?

For what? And what would that look like? Yeah. So I think definitely. So for me, passive recovery is, and I’m definitely not a big fan of time in the stall, but the time in the stall would come down as passive recovery as time in a field, especially if you have a horse that is on individual turn out or in a small paddock or just a force that doesn’t really move that much in the field, it squanders around.

But to me that’s all passive recovery, that you’re not really doing anything to stimulate a lot of blood flow. Yeah, they’re moving and there’s a little bit of blood flow, but nothing too intense where the heart rates getting up. And then three active recovery. If I’m building a training program, like typically I recommend 3 days of recovery in the training program. And then if it’s more senior athlete that’s competing at these them out, it may even be 4 days of of recovery, maybe 3 days active and one day passive.

It it really depends on how their body is and everything. But in terms of active recovery, that’s going out for hacks, even just doing like some light work in a field. If the horses, if the horse can handle that mentally and you’re not really trying to train them a lot like it’s a loose to rain and they can go out and just move and they have a bit more autonomy in that work. I go through phases. I don’t know my thoughts on lunging, but I think if you have a horse that could tolerate lunging on a large circle and you’re not chasing it but just letting it go out.

I think there’s some horses that are quite intelligent and they’ll move their body as they need to force needs to stretch on the lunge. I think that’s a good way to do it. Just let them just try and put their nose in the dirt or whatever they want to do or sometimes so it fuss a little bit more to the outside of the inside. And I think that’s really good diagnostic tests for the person on the ground to see. Like how does my horse want to move?

What are they stretching? That maybe tells you how they responded work. I would say it’s important for everyone to think about recovery in terms of active and passive. I think for horses, active is much more important. The passive, it depends a little bit on the horse, but I think in general through Marge creatures, there’s a huge amount of muscle mass there.

I think it’s good for blood to be always flowing through that and have good circulation. I think my personal feeling is that a more heavily muscled horse needs more movement. If you have a horse that’s accomplishing its athletic job without a lot of muscle, and sometimes those ones can get a little get away with a little bit more passive recovery. But like those heavily muscled at the inventors and stuff like that, they need to be constantly moving. Interesting.

And how would I actually had this come up the other day when I guess to start, how does a training and conditioning program for say like a mid level event horse and a mid level show jumper differ in terms of maybe even days written per week or kind of what you’re doing per week and how that differs per just? Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ll just start out by saying I haven’t done so much with adventures, like I’m primarily jumping, but I think in general, when you lift across justage jumping, eventing is a little bit unique because you have the justage component and the jumping component as well. So I always come back to what is it most similar to in track and field and go from there. So like for me, the jumpers at the 400 meter hurdles dressage maybe doesn’t have such an equivalence in track and field, but it’s more like an artistic gymnastics takes thing like 14 maybe.

And then adventures are sports where you need to have the skills and such a wide range of tasks. But all that say that when you’re building a training program, I think you always need to be close to the velocity you need to accomplish to succeed in the sports. Obviously adventures have higher velocities than dressage. So probably at least one day a week like adventures will always need to get like higher velocities. The same thing with the endurance component that you need to develop that’s to meet the demands of the sport.

Sports dressage has higher endurance component than jumping. And then for jumping, because those fences are so big, it really comes down to a lot of speed, power type work. And like the horses will go fast in the jump off. But even more important for the jumpers, they need to exert huge amounts of force at the base of jumps in short periods of time. No, with only with often like less than 20 milliseconds of time at the base jump for each hoof to apply that force to get up in the air.

And so defending is a little bit tricky for sure because you need to fit in time to train corsage and jumping. I think different people could talk to how they do that. But for jumping I think it comes down to a lot more focus on speed, power, tape work, maybe a bit more focused on the jump training or technique itself. It really is all about just thinking about your individual sport and almost creating a checklist. These are all the qualities I want my horse to have to accomplish whatever I wanted to in that sport that time.

And then to work backwards from that. You know, sometimes hear the phrase that key performance indicators on the human side and like other sports are really good about publishing how strong the world’s best athletes are and like how fast they are at like 30 meters, 60 meters, how far can they throw a 4K Med ball, all these sorts of things. And it allows you to create this sort of model of a champion and then you compare your athletes to the athlete you want to beat one day, and then that informs what you target. So a little bit of a vague answer for you, Samantha, but it’s so much depends on. Yeah, yeah.

Those the demands of the sport make strengths a weaknesses of your horse. Like one other thing I would just say to that is that if you have a horse that’s really good, it’s a really explosive horse, then that your training program will be very different than a horse. That it’s like the horse that loves to go out and it just loves to work and it wants to be understandable the whole time. That you’d build very different pro training programs for that horse versus the very explosive horse that can’t get a little bit frustrated training over time. So much variability.

And just based on your experience, were there any common training mistakes you see when it comes to developing horses with a conditioning plan or getting them fit for anything or getting them more balanced? Or are there mistakes that you’re seeing and even if the intention or the thought process is right, like I’m sure a lot of times you show up at a place and what you say is pretty much what they were thinking, they just didn’t know how to get there. Yeah, for sure. I think oftentimes people just don’t have enough recovery in the program. Like everyone or a lot of people are very ambitious.

And you think back to those movies that we watched as kids where if it was football or basketball or whatever and like the coaches are running these crazy intense practices to make the kids better. I think that was very much so the feeling back in the 80s and the 90s. But the sport has evolved. Our understanding sports science has evolved so much past then. And if you look at just the world’s best athletes across sports, they tend to have a lot more recovery built in today than they did 20 or 30 years ago.

And that’s just an understanding of the importance of recovery, allowing the body to catch up to the work you apply to it. So I’d say that’s one thing. It’s better to be 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained, because as soon as you get into overtraining, then everything falls apart. And that’s when injuries and of course becoming stale and those issues arise. And I think as well, and I think adventures are great about this, jumpers are just saj not so much as variability, variation in training.

There’s a lot of work coming out now that’s saying that the more variation you have in your training protects against injury. It’s good for the minds and so on there. We’re starting to see in there’s some research command of the resource world that shows that more time and panics and doing variable things is correlated with their success actually racing and the career longevity. Just getting your horse out of the ring looking for different surfaces. I’ve had a couple people ask me what’s the best service to train their horse on if they’re installing a new surface for me.

And I would rather have someone invest in just try to have the horse on as many different surfaces as possible instead of looking for that like one surface is going to be perfect, the best for them. And then I think just the final one I would mention would, I think oftentimes and again, I think adventures are better than this. Then maybe some of the other disciplines, but just saying, oh, I’m just going to flat my horse, stay or jump my horse today and not really having a plan as to like the exercises you’re going to do, like what they actually accomplished within the body. Ultimately, if you want to create change in the body. So if you want more muscle or you want muscle with a higher oxygen capacity so you have better endurance, the types of exercises you do are very specific to that.

And you can’t be training everything all at once. So you need to be a bit targeted with the types of exercises you’re doing. So you can’t develop maybe endurance and absolute speed in the same workout. You just can’t because it’s those two qualities just could compete with each other in the body. You can’t maximize them at the same time.

And just being very detailed and very thoughtful with, I really need to work on endurance with my horse. So I’m maybe going to have three or four weeks where I’ll still do some velocity work and I’ll still do some strength work. But I’m really trying to build out this endurance component. And I conversely, like you may have ties where you feel like, like I’m my horses may be not excelling as well over the jumps. I feel like I need more power from it.

And you may switch things up a little bit and focus a lot more on the speed work. So if there is a specific thing that I’m trying to improve in my force, whether that be something that has to do with endurance or speed velocity or whatever it may be, how long should I like attempt to like, OK, I’m going to give this thing two weeks. Or is is there an ideal length of time that riders, if they’re trying to improve something, should give it to actually improve? Yeah. So that’s another great question is tell people that it’s not so much the number of weeks you give something gets more about the number of times you actually exposed the horse to it.

So another way to think about it is like dosages or if you think about it as you’re vaccinating your horse. So if you want to be really good in endurance, you want to like maybe go and quote UN quote vaccinate it with your training program. So you as a rider, you’re giving your horse at least training stimuli. The body responds just like responds to the vaccine and then you get some output at the end. And so it’s what’s the dosage of what you give to your horse.

For me, I think it’s always better to take a little bit more time, especially when you’re experimenting with something new. So if you’ve, let’s say the horse’s been in the same program for a year and now you decide, I think I need more endurance worth and that’s going to put me over the what’s going to take me to the next level. I think you’d probably be looking at giving the horse at least 5 doses of that’s five training sessions very dedicated to that. And then maybe over 2 1/2 weeks or three weeks and then maybe re evaluating where that is. I think there are ways to accomplish a lot in a short period of time, but that’s when you.

Really focus in on something. Let’s say you were just named to a team and you’ve got a set window now, like there’s not a lot of time to get ready for a big competition and you feel the speed or power is lacking. It may be a situation where you would really focus on that and that may be essentially all you trained for two weeks almost. So you’d maybe have a two or three of those sessions a week and you train almost something else. The rest of time is recovery, just allowing the body to catch up to that and then like you try to like taper down and everything.

I always think that 5 or 6 training sessions over a few weeks is a good barometer. It gives them enough. You should start to see changes at that point. And if you don’t see changes that flag something, and firstly, if you are seeing changes and the horse is still trending upwards, then you could probably keep that moving and keep that following that program for a little bit longer until it starts to plateau and then you’d make a change and continue the process again. So how can I tell if I am over training my horse and that’s causing the frustration in the horse or the bad behavior in the horse or whatever versus it’s actually an actual training issue?

Is there a way that you can learn more towards overtraining or lack of recovery versus? Yeah, so my it’s a tricky question again, right. Like I always feel like I say, I think everything’s a tricky question, but it a little bit like depends so much on like how well you know the horse. If I start working with someone again and they feel like the horse plateaued, who’s turn to have behavioral issues? I’m always curious to know like how consistent is a horse’s mentality and has there been any other change in the horse?

Because I think in general it takes a lot of energy to fight a rider on the horse. That’s always my perception of it. If you have a horse that’s stopping or really evading contact, like under saddle, like that takes a lot of energy. So it’s a pretty strong stimuli or a pretty strong reason for the horse to say, OK, like I’m going to put up a bit of a fight here when it would be so much easier for them just to continue on. Again, like, I think it’s always important to rule out any sort of like musculoskeletal issues.

Ulcers are unfortunately something a lot of horses do struggle with, like making sure that’s under control as well, other things to look for. It has like when you’re just on the ground around the horse, is there anything that’s changed there? So is the horse’s appetite that has that gone down, which could be an indicator of overtraining in the stall is a little bit grumpier. And if it’s none of that and it’s purely just when someone gets on the back, even though the body feels good and it starts resisting, I think when she goes through and rule everything else out. I think horses in general do want to please us and I think that they’re quite intelligent and that they’ve evolved to be very economical with how they use energy.

So if the horses all of a sudden or over time, like say I’m going to put up a big fight here to evade what’s the rider wants me to do, I think there’s usually something underneath. And it’s just about going through a massive checklist, trying to figure out what that is. And if you get to the bottom of the checklist and you still haven’t found anything, then I think just simplify things for a while and adding a bit more recovery anyway is still good for them. Just try to always put them in position or in positions where anything you ask them under the saddle, they will say yes to you and do. And then just rebuild the confidence in the partnership and go from there.

Yeah, it’s interesting. I, although I have been my own horses, I deal with horses with a lot of behavioral issues and like 100% I have never thought of overtraining as something that could lead to for behavior. And so it’s interesting to me because there’s always more to learn. So in your experience, what’s 1 surprising thing that data has revealed about equine performance that maybe like intuition or human alone probably wouldn’t have caught? Yeah.

So I guess this is just looking back on my career, the one of the areas where I was fortunate to maybe dis identify some things in the riders I was working with early on that allowed or had them keep me around. So we felt that was valuable. And I think it’s about the challenge with professional riders. You have a stable of five 10/15/20 horses, right? And it’s really difficult to keep everything aligned that the human brain just cannot process that volume of information, everything the horseshoe given, especially when you try to look for trends over days, weeks and months, it becomes at least impossible.

So about 10 years ago, I did a little bit of work with a human sport performance company. That’s all they did was work professional sports teams and they bring in data from all the different sources and they graph it and just look for correlations. So often they found that there were certain things like sleep or how an athlete felt in the morning when they would do a light practice before a game of the evening that correlated with performance and it oftentimes wasn’t within a day correlation. So it was two or three days before. If the athlete had a bad sleep, then their free throw percentage would be way lower.

And so when I started out, I had all the riders to live these worksheets of what they did with the horses every day. So the type of work they did, for how long, how intense and sort of comments on that if the horse was going on treadmills got turned out, if it’s in competition, like how long flatted beforehand, all sorts of things. And it’s never consistent across horses. Like each horse is an individual. But I with that, there were usually two or three things that I did identify with each horse.

Some horses if they were flatting beyond a certain amount of time in the morning, it was always a bad performance in the evening in the jumper ring and that’s probably related to the horse wasn’t feeling good after woke up from his sleep the night before, which probably means like it was sores not enough therapy was done or too much was done in the ring or maybe spy just it isn’t strong enough to handle it. You still have to work back as a piece together, but there were certain things that always came out with things like recording very specifically that issues on course. I think again I’m mostly in the jumper world and a lot of apparatus will keep a little diary of the horse have a vertical or an ox are down on these dates, but going really depth. What was the exact approach to it, what color of jump, all those sorts of things can again allow you to better identify the weaknesses of the horse it to build a program around that. And then just outside of my work, some things that I’m really excited about.

Again, the German equestrian team, some of the researchers working with those riders do a really good job of it started to really track like performance on course and performance into all these top eventing horses and what energy systems actually contribute. And I think we’re starting to learn that people think cross country is very intense in focus, which it is, but we’re starting to learn more and more. There’s also like a very important speed component. If you can train that speed component with your five star horses, if as long as you can like still meet the time without going at Max velocity, so maybe 90 or 95%, then it’s going to be way easier for your horse and you’re not going to exhaust them as much as if your horses Max velocity is what they actually need out of course. So it’s cool to see some of that research being done and tripling down into different stables.

Where do you see the biggest opportunity for innovation in the next 5-10 years? I think a lot is going to come from these wearables that are being produced now. Garmin released a wearable just last week which looks interesting. The tail wrap. There are the apps like the sleep app which is AI vision.

You don’t put any markers on your horse. You can jog your horse in front of your camera and it gives you ideas about asymmetry and push off and landing in those horses. Some other wearables as well for heart rate characteristics about stride frequency at length and those types of things. So I think that’s all interesting. I bet the problem as of today in 2025 is that there isn’t so much normative data.

So like I mentioned with the human track and field athletes where they’re always posting their PBS gym and their PBS on the track versus if you do have one of these wearables today, you’re still a little bit in the dark because you don’t really know. Like, how do you put this in context with maybe your goal is to jump, you know, meter 30 in the jumper. You just want to do precinct, George, you never want to go further. Like, how do you correlate these wearables to that? But think as more and more people get on board with it, more and more of this research was published, I think it will come a little bit easier to piece that together.

Where do you with all of this AI and everything? Where do you see AI being the most beneficial for horse sports or for Someone Like You, or even for a trainer like me? Where do you see that fitting in the most? Yeah, I’ll give maybe 2 answers. I think that AI can’t be leveraged to help grow the sport, which in turn I hope brings a lot more money to the sport.

And I think that AI is going to, I’m not sure when, but I think it will eventually play a major role in how these sports are communicated to your average fan. Just in terms of helping to bring together more information for broadcasters. So when the analyst talks about whatever horses on course, they have information that’s more valuable to the audience than just saying this is a nice Bay horse and this is his breeding. And I like the way it jumps, right? And every other sport, they always talk about how, whether it’s football or basketball, as soon as they introduce more data, they automatically get more engagement, more interest from fans that people love to consume data.

They love to be in the know about that. So I think that’s one thing I’m excited about. I think it’s going to make the sport better and I hope it’s going to ensure that everyone makes a good living doing this if you do to a good level. And then I think the other aspect, I think this being able to better monitor our horses. All these companies come out with really cool devices.

Wearables are one of them. But things like air quality monitors in the barn, things like how much exposure to sunlight does your, how much time does horse spend outside? How much is moving in the paddock? When’s it actually eating? I think all that sort of stuff.

If there’s a way to collect it on invasively, bring it all together and have AI program process it, I think it gives you a really nice Wellness picture of where your horse is on what he had to think. It’s going to be a little bit sad because it is going to for those like true horse people who were already paying attention to a lot of that information and that is their skill set in a way is going to become an option for people. But on the flip side, we’re always going to need people who are very skilled at interpreting that information, very skilled at taking action based on what the dad is telling us. Yeah, like, I think that there are lots of opportunities out there. I would just encourage everyone to AI is here, and there’s no point resisting it any further.

So it’s really about being creative and figuring out how can I leverage some of this to create a better program for my horses or for the riders I’m training and so on. Because it’s not getting put back in the box, it’s here. And a lot of your competitors are going to use it. So adopted or get left behind, right? Yeah, basically.

So you obviously work a lot with a lot of top riders, top athletes, and what’s 1 practice from elite riders that everyday riders could adopt and maybe find immediate benefit from? Yeah, I just put some thought into this. You sent this question along beforehand. And it’s funny, just as I finished talking about AI. But I think if there’s one commonality among all the best writers in the world is that they have relatively simple programs.

And I’m not saying they’re all the same, but just with respect to how they run their barn day in and day out, it’s always consistent. You don’t really see those top riders chasing many gadgets and you don’t see them coming back after competition every week and saying this other top rider did this. So now I’m going to completely change my program because they’re doing that. And that’s not so you don’t innovate and adapt, but I think that having a very solid foundation of principles and that’s why you and being 100% confident, This is why you do everything you do, then that allows you to really understand it and to say, oh, actually I did see something at the show yesterday. And I think it fills this gap in my program currently.

So I will try it. Or conversely, being able to filter out most of the stuff when a sales Rep comes up to you and says you should be using this or that and to say no, like actually in my program, I account for it with XY and Z. And so I don’t need that like just circling back to the eye stuff really quickly. I think again, the one limitation in almost every program is time. So everyone’s so busy in the stable, you don’t have time to sit down and to really study what your horses are doing day in and day and what they’re exposed to.

So I think for everyone, realistically, if you find programs that consolidate a lot of this information into one place, you can set aside 30 minutes or an hour to go through that every day. It’s going to save you hundreds of hours in the long run. Like I think just simplicity, like for those listening at home to every day, when you go to the stable, be very deliberate in what you’re doing. And if you’re doing something that you can’t 100% guarantee is going to make you better on Sunday, throw it out for now. And then if the results do go down, then add it back in.

But yeah, like I think always start as simple as possible, like simplest equipment, simplest therapies, and then add in based on that first. So many staples today I find are just using all these different supplements and all this equipment just because it’s what they’ve done forever. There’s not a lot of going back to basics and just saying, do I actually need to do this? And again, people are really stressed for time right now. So this is something you can make a program, the more efficient it will be.

Cool. This has been a very informative podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me. How do people follow along with what you do and all of that good stuff? And so I am on Instagram for those on social media, my handles at T Warden training.

I don’t know if you can put that in the show description. So you can find the description there. I’m also on LinkedIn if you want to reach out to me there. I do enjoy talking about this stuff and I’ve been very fortunate. Like when I was more of the human sport world, a lot of really good coaches took time out of their schedule to chat with me.

So I always encourage people, if you have any questions, just reach out. I love talking about it, love hearing about what other people are up to. And yeah, I hope to hear from you. Cool, awesome. Thanks so much.

Thank you.