From Pressure to Partnership - Dr. Shelley Appleton

I typically kick the episodes off by having the guests tell us who they are and what it is they do. Hi, my name is Doctor Shelley Appleton. I’m from Sydney, Australia and I’m the founder of Calm Willing Confident Horses, a horse trainer, I’m an educator, a public coach, I’m a podcast host myself, I’m an author of a number of books and I sell a lot of online programs and things like that. Trying to be able to transform people like I’ve transformed myself of being able to work that horses. So I’m very grateful for being here and being able to talk about my favorite subject, which is horses.

Sam. Yeah, of course. And so how have you always been involved with horses? What has your riding career looked like? Yeah, so I’ve ridden since I was a child.

I’ve been obsessed with horses since the moment I can remember. People get intense interest in plants and crops, and I suppose that’s how we became farmers or animals. And I suppose you and I and everyone else out there has the biophilia Equus that we love horses. I think that’s really awesome. Anyway, back on track.

And yes, I’ve written since a child and then I did have a break from horses doing my final years of school so I could focus on that. And then when I graduated from university and started earning money, I saved up and bought a horse. And I’ve had horses ever since. So yeah, the big part of my life. But I can say up until my very early 30s, I was your normal, everyday amateur equestrian that had their career and then eat horses as their hobby.

And then I had these moons aligned for me, which sent me on this amazing journey that I’ve been on to develop this great expertise on horses. And it’s all from a real blessing. So yeah, that’s how I came to be here. And if you told me back in my late 20s or something I was going to be doing this, I would think that was hilarious. But especially what I do because no one really knows how to pigeonhole me.

You look at me, it’s funny. The dressage crowd or the English crowd look at me and think I’m a rope twirler, Call me. And then the horsemanship people look at me and they go, oh, you’re just a dressage rider, you’re an English rider. And it’s so funny. And then other people will look at me from the Western world and they’ll think I’m all science because I’ve got this science background to me.

And then the science people look at me and poke me. I could be dangerous because I’m not in. So I don’t stick in any box. And so definitely back then, if you told me what I was going to do with my life, I would have been completely think it was completely hilarious because I’m sitting here in front of you by complete accident. That’s how I feel like horses happen though, was that even though we bub them and in the back of our minds as we’re kids for like how do we spend all of our time with them and whatever on the same.

I went to school to be an accountant and now I go, Oh my God, I can’t imagine like sitting behind a desk and same sort of deal. I fell into becoming a pro and that has led me to this. Horses are very special in that way, I think. They are and I think very great unifier that they’re they’re great connected to do with people. It doesn’t matter.

You go to your podcast and of course being a professional you get to meet lots of people, but we can instantly connect. It doesn’t matter where we come from. We can connect labour horses and we know what’s special about them. So it’s a great way to connect with people and to be able to learn about that person or accept that person regardless of anything else that’s going on in their life. So I think at this time in the world or whatever, that’s actually a really important thing.

Yeah, for sure. What does your program look like? And I use the term program loosely, but like you’re the day. What is that? Well, my day-to-day, I recognize this right, You have done.

I just got to backtrack and tell you a little bit about what happened to me. I’m sitting here and talking to you because I made a horse’s mouth bleed once and it mortified me. It horrified me when that happened and it snapped me out of my silo. Right now you’ve also got to know what I did before. So my career, I’m a pharmacist, but I worked in academia as a university lecturer.

I had a 25 year career as a university lecturer in academia, but my specialty, my research area was in medical education. So creating expertise in people when my mind got blown right out of my silo of my English discipline because I made my horse bleed. Because back then you got to understand Sam. Back then I had to see blood to know that I was hurting a whore snapped me out of it and what I’d actually done. I hadn’t ripped his mouth with the bitter that what I’d actually did was worse.

I had traumatized him so much and obviously caused him so much pain. He bit through his front lip anyway. So in my I was just horrified by that. And I was horrified by my coaches that just told me to keep on going, just keep on going. What are you worried about?

I just couldn’t hurt my horse and I couldn’t see it anyway. YouTube was on in the background and I just heard this voice and it just said there’s no such thing as a hard mouthed horse. My horse had always been labeled just hard mouth and that was just unfortunate. Find the right bit. There’s no such thing as a hard mouthed horse.

There’s a horse that’s habituated to pain and doesn’t understand the bit. They’re resistant to pressure. And just went on to describe how you can test it right now. You got to remember that my background right there at that moment was in learning. So I go out and I get on my horse and no one and I had I got coaching from people that went to the Olympics and like anyway, I sat there, no one had ever got me to test whether my horse understood the bit.

And it was the most simple thing to do. I just picked up 1 rein and my horse turned his head the other way and right then in front of me it was like, Oh my God, you don’t know what that means, right? So from that moment, my life unravelled and but I was lucky because I had these moons aligned that allowed me to do it. But getting back to my program. So what I’ve done since that moment is sitting on my horse in my arena has been working out what I didn’t know, what I couldn’t see, what I didn’t know.

So how my program looks is that, let’s call it horsemanship, right? Knowing about horses and knowing how to work with them well and understanding we do form this interspecies partnership with them. It’s got 3 dimensions to it, right? The first dimension is you got to know what you’re looking at. You got to be able to observe the room, right?

You got to know what you’re looking at. So you got to know about horses. You got to know about the equine species, right? You got to know. So when you look at them, you know why that might be happening, why that’s happening, or why they could be reacting like that.

You’re going to know then, like with any type of expertise, is really based on how good your decision making is, right? Better your decision making, the better your outcome. So you got to know what you’re looking at. So there’s a knowledge base, right? You got to know about them.

So what’s my program look like? 1 dimension is it is knowing about is teaching this aspect of what are equines as species, how do they relate to things? How do they do a domestication? What’s common with their behavior? What does their behavior mean, etcetera.

Then you’ve got to make the decision. And horses are a species and when we interact with them, they understand a few simple words, but how they make sense of us is through their senses. So they can learn our gestures and things from us visually. Like we point, they can learn what that means or go back or come forward. They can learn gestures like that, like visual things and of course sounds.

But what they primarily, especially when we ride them, it’s a touch language. It’s touch, but we’ve got to create meaning. We’ve got to create this language. So you need skills to develop that language and how they can understand how to actually influence them. You got to have these influencing skills with them and then you got to be a damn good load to carry.

Writing is so important and being a balanced writer because how we affect their body is profound when we sit on top. So you’ve got knowledge, skills, a skill set that you’ve got to know, and then the big one, OK, because you can know all about horses and you can have all these great skills and you could be the greatest rider in the world, but if you don’t understand the impact you have on them, you need self-awareness. So I’ll just give you an example. When I got very good at training horses, one of my horses who I’d put a lot of effort into, he was fantastic at home. He was only young and he was absolutely fun because I discovered I could teach a horse to do anything rapidly.

But I’d go out and compete him and I’d always be faced with this tension. So he would do anything at home. But when I went out, it didn’t matter what I did. He’d break in trot or he’d spot leaves encanter and it was just these little things that really matter and I couldn’t really understand what was going on there. But what was happening is that basically he didn’t trust me.

He understood me, I was very clear, but he didn’t trust me. So he was on edge with me. And when I took him out into that competition environment, it just tipped it over the edge that the tension in him from me, it was OK at home, but add that environmental tension and I had issues and it was me that was causing it because I had become like the perfectionist taskmaster. So I was on to him. Perfection, perfection, every step perfect.

That horse never got a release of pressure. I was pressured because I’m like high achiever myself. I can do that to myself. But what I was inadvertently doing is I was putting that pressure on the horse. Now some of the other horses I was competing could cope with that, but not this horse.

It tipped him over the edge, but it was my fault because I wasn’t really properly. But see, that’s a part that’s self-awareness that you have to have. So my program is about knowledge, it’s about a skill base, and it’s about self-awareness. And the skill set I focus on is the skill set. So my background is building expertise in health professionals.

So any profession or anything you do has what’s called the Pareto principle. There’s a key set of skills that you use. OK, 80% of the time it’s got the 8020 rule, so 80% of the time you’ll be using this skill set. Yes, you do need this high skill set to fulfil. The other 20%, which might be very high performance like yourself as a professional is the time.

It’s this skill set. So it’s the 8020 or the Prado principle. So what I worked out that if I taught people the skills to be able to start a horse, that set them up massively because it’s the foundation skills of the horse, the basics on the horse that the horse accepts the rider without fear. They can turn left, they can turn right, they have a good posture, they can do upwards and downwards transitions, they can stop and they can back up most basic of basic things right as well as handle them well on the ground. Nothing fancy, but just good general handling on the ground that set those people and those horses up.

So that skill set on the horse is the 80% they need and the skill set human is the 80% they need to be able to take that horse further but protect it and protect their training because it’s within that level of training of the horse, which is where you find all the problems. People can load a horse on a trailer that to learn it specifically they can learn it. That skill set allows you to take young horses out to start competing them and be able to make good decisions about building their confidence in that competition environment. It’s that skill set that if you get a horse, like different horses with different levels of ability to cope, you know how to nurture them to be able to grow their exposure and make good decisions. So that’s what I focus on, that skill set.

Interesting. Yeah. I resonate with your story so much because I don’t think you can go down the path of trying to understand horses without having screwed up a time or two. And just to hear you talk about it so openly is, I think, so good for listeners because so many people stand from a place of authority and. Yeah.

You need to do it this way. And if you do this, you’re abusing your horse. And if you do this, and I read something the other day that was like you horses tail swish more if you put them on their face and neck versus their hind quarter. And I like that information. I’m just like, sometimes I feel so bad for horse owners because I’m like, Oh my God, now they can’t even cut their horses.

And I too am a very high performer myself and have had to work very hard on dampening that a bit when I’m working with the horses. And I had a horse in my junior young rider career who was just as ambitious as I was. And I fed the beasts a bit. And then I got a chestnut mayor and she was like, lady, I don’t like this at all. And I was like, OK, I guess I have to learn something different.

And she, so she’s the one that kind of sent me down the journey of, oh, why is she so stressed out? Why? And even at home, she would get pissy with me. And she is the one who taught me about dysregulation and lack of trust. And I, I’m curious as to how you were able to understand that your horse who was understanding but not trusting was not trusting versus, oh, he just needs to go to more shows and get more exposure.

And because that I think it’s such an easy thought process for us to. He. Goes to the show. He’s nervous go to more shows. So how are you able to differentiate the?

Thing is from like what you said about making a lot of mistakes you make, it’s by making mistakes and hitting, it’s almost that you hit walls. Like I believe that just said that chestnut mare gave you a gift. It was like I could tell people it’s just this horse is giving you a gift because I’d say there’s horse gods. I tell people, I said there’s horse gods, don’t you? And what they do to you is that they hand you these horses to fall in love with.

And they might during your childhood give you this lovely, beautiful horse to fall in love. And then you fall in love with them and then they’re like, and now it’s your time. And so then they start handing you horses for you to learn. It’s now human, you lovers. OK, now you need to learn about us.

Now you need to respect and learn something. So they hand you horses and what happens to people like or reject them, sell them on or that’s a bad horse. Gods do is they just like shrug and they give you the same horse again. You might not look it’s the same horse, but they just keep giving you that horse till you learn right now why I had been able to work that horse out is because I told you about how I made a horse’s mouth bleed. But I’ve had another heads up, another heads up that it could be something to do with me because at the same time I had the horse that I made his mouth bleed.

Anyway, he’d proceeded to scare the crap out of me for seven years. So I bought this young warm blood and then I had this like teenage warm blood at this stage. But what had happened? And he was just so sensitive, right? Labeled him sensitive.

Everyone just felt sorry for me that I just happened to have this sensitive very flash force that would just, he’d be freaking out of the leaf or something over there. And then I used to ride him on my arena at the bottom end of my arena in this circle, a 15 minute circle because it couldn’t be 20, because that’d be too close to the edge, because he’d be rallied. And I called that the circle of safety right at this horse. And I used to spend because I was, because I’m a pharmacist. How do you reckon, Sam, that I thought, what do you reckon?

How I thought What? What do you reckon I thought was wrong with him? And what? How do you reckon? I decided I had to cure it.

What do you reckon? I’d reckon A calming supplement. Yes, very good. I decided he had an anxiety disorder like a medical medical accident, didn’t I? Because that was my background.

He had a an anxiety disorder. It is awful thing and yes, I’d try every anything that promised. That poor horse probably had an overdose of magnesium in his system and herb cotton cocktails and things like that. Do you know what bone therapy is? No, it’s a type of therapy, massage therapy.

Once he had a bone therapy session and the next day he was amazing to ride. So I went and became a bone therapist. I went and did the whole entire course, right. I was dedicated to working. This was out so seven years, right.

I’m riding this horse down the end of my ring. I could hardly do anything with him. The other horse that I made Bath believe I had him out and about anyway. I had a friend who one day just offered, would you like me to ride him? And this guy rode Rodeo and he rode Team Roper.

And I was like, he wanted the offer to ride. And I said, I was really worried. I said, this is not one of the quarter horses you ride. I let him ride him. Anyway, we’re walking down my arena and I’m giving him the rundown of everything.

This horse’s name was Scooter. Everything Scooter was worried about a Bush over here. Don’t ride him down there. He’s worried about that. And the look on this guy’s face was like, I could tell he thought I was crazy.

And I just said to him, I said, don’t you want to know what he’s worried about? And he was like no, wait till he does something. And in my head I just went that’s madness because what I was doing was risk management isn’t a Sam. It doesn’t it make sense that if your horse is worried about something that you should know about that. Like so he gets on Scooter and I’m quite sure he’s going to die.

And within 5 seconds, yes, of course Scooter had spooked at the Bush next to the gate. And I was like, yeah, there we go. Anyway, then what happened just made Miles pop out of my head. He just gave you bit of a kick and just asked him to canter. I proceeded to what?

This horse has scared the crap out of me for seven years. Loped around like a complete quietest horse on the planet. 5 loops one way. Then he changed rain and then went around the other way and he rode down the center line towards me and he came to stop in front of me and I just looked it up at him and I said it’s me isn’t it? And he was like, yeah, it’s you.

And I was like, what am I doing? And he says, you’re telling him the world’s terrifying and he believes you. And do you know what? That was the last time that horse ever spooked. I got on him.

I went for my first competition, 72%. He won it. And then not long after that, he died a colic. What he told me was it was me that was creeping around me. And that changed my whole approach to the horse.

That changed something about me because like, I was making him like that. And the last ride I had on that horse was just out on the Bush on a loose rain joining him. Yeah. Had this incredible horse for seven years that I wasted all that time with. They didn’t know that and then I made the other horse’s mouth lead.

So I was set up OK when this other horse started being spooky, started being spooky tense, right? And I could get him to go through anything I wanted to, but he was tense about, but he’d hold ancient. I worked out that hang on, I better look at me first because this horse understood everything and I was not creeping around him, but I was bullying him. I was being the opposite, which is just as bad. And so then I just started to, I was working more and more horses by this stage and I remember I had a mare.

So I’m sorry, this is a bit of a long winded story, but it’s like a few means a line. I had another mare that had been sold to someone for a lot of money and they couldn’t get on with her at all. And I was working with her. And by that stage I discovered groundwork. To start with, I wasn’t interested in anything on the ground.

I just did everything from the saddle. And anyway, I was working her on the ground and she was just being like emotional, right. Anyway, same friends, same mentor in my life went past me right? And I said something negative about the mayor. I said, oh, she’s just being bit of a Dick.

She says, oh, she’s bringing in a bit deep. And he stopped and he said, hang on there he goes. Look at you. You want a perfect sender. You want a perfect circle, you want a perfect that, and it’s.

And then he just went pressure, right? Yeah. And that was like, whoa. So that made me think I was like, oh, here I am. I’m doing the same thing to this horse.

And that’s why he’s not really trusting me. So I just learned that I had to, instead of just demanding with the horse, I got him following me more. And I’d wait a little bit. I’d take him to a competition, first of all, like laid off him at home. I just allowed things to flow more and what I did instead of demanding from the first step, it had to be like amazing.

It don’t change your posture and go at this speed at that distance. I didn’t. I just started ticking away like just going and then I just ease it on and I just took the intensity out of myself anyway. He just started loosening, but just say I get to a show environment and what I would do is I’d just start writing just a figure of eight. And instead of demanding that figure of eight, like just bending around figure of 8, instead of demanding it to be perfect, I just allowed him.

I just made sure I rode well and I waited to him and suddenly he’d just go pick. He’d kick into me. So I just started waiting for him and then he just joined me. So I stopped demanding and he just came. I just worried about being myself because another thing is when I’m being this demanding freaking taskmaster, it doesn’t do anything good for a horse’s ability to transfer their load because you’re all tense getting stuck into the fixing every step and stuff like that.

It doesn’t actually make you a good load to carry. So I hope that answers your question, but there was a few things that started me like I had gone from one end of the expection and went she’s the other end of that balance. It’s so funny, I heard I going back to this chestnut mayor, she struggled with dressage and it she’s like one of the most infuriating types for dressage trainers to watch because they look at her and they go, Oh my God, there’s so much in there. And then they look at her and they go glad I’m not the one riding it. And I very similarly had a couple of things, but it was I was listening to a podcast and this event rider goes, horses go the way they’re ridden.

And I just was like, that’s not true because I’m very relaxed and this horse underneath me is a firecracker. Like, my ego was like, of course that’s not the case with this. Yeah. But I’ve always had it in the back of my mind. And then I listen to this other podcast, and this guy is talking about there are three types of riders.

There are riders who stay too soft. There are riders who go too hard. And then there’s the rider that’s right in the middle. And I go, oh, that could be me. I could be.

I was the opposite. I went from very hard and intense to very soft and like pussyfooting around and, and now 10 years later, I’m like starting to find the middle. But it was so funny because I go, oh, going back to the forces go the way they’re ridden. I was like, it’s not that my physically riding is the problem. I was like, I think my mental riding is the problem and I’m just putting so much pressure on this horror horse and she is lady.

I don’t like dressage that much. I am an event horse. You’re give up wanting because the horse that I had before her, I could be getting taken off with in the dressage arena and she just scored well. Like she just was that horse. And I get this other horse who like, to me, it was a better ride.

I was like, she’s more workmen. She’s a bit more obedient. Like I’m not, I don’t fear for my life and the Cantor extensions and but she’s just getting nailed by these stressage tests. And then I’d get angry and it really had nothing to do with her. But I was just putting all of these emotions and expectations and pressure that just wasn’t necessary except to fulfill my own ego.

And now I go, OK, like I have to visualize and I have to do all of this stuff. And it’s not even for her. It’s for me. But it’s I see the benefits in her. And you know, I went to a competition with her last year and just a dressage only competition.

And she was just doing like a second level test. And we at home, we’d get it no problem. She’d be a little bit sticky in the walk to Canner’s. But I get to the test and there were a lot of things. It was raining.

It was whatever. But like she just was having none of it. And like the poor dressage judge, like the arena or the test runner came to get the test. And I hear the judge go, stay away from that horse. And I go, Oh my God, that is first and foremost.

She’s clearly tense, right? But then I was like, that’s the picture that I’m putting out there. And here I am trying to be this person who’s all about getting horses to relax and getting horses in this regulated state. And then I show up with my horse and it’s a bloody nightmare. And I realized, OK, now I’m actually putting riding.

I fix the mental pressure that I’m putting on her and I go, OK, this doesn’t really mean anything. We’re here to have fun. And then I’m sitting deep into her and I’m keeping her all collected for the canner transitions. And then I get home and I go, oh, that’s bad. Because normally in the canner transitions at home, I soften into the canner transitions where I get into the ring and I’m like, you better be perfect.

And, and she’s giving me the metaphorical middle finger. Yeah. She’s just trying to get me to be like, lady, like, lay off. This doesn’t mean anything. Relax.

And I just think so many people have that horse that they’re always hitting their head on the wall to be like, what is the issue? Sometimes I think we can go so hard on ourselves that we are such a problem and then or what’s the opposite? We’re we lean into the horses, the problem and it’s trying to find that balance. Here’s where you’re weak and here’s where I’m weak. So maybe we can like even the scales out of it.

Yeah, that’s why I like saying you got to know about the horse. I like understanding the horse. So just say you want a really good, you want a horse that’s going to do well in competitions. You would love doing that. OK, So then your strategy is you got to make sure that horse feels very confident in that competition space.

So you’ve got to protect that. Now let me tell you about a mistake I made. But actually it was with that particular horse, right? Because there was 1 venue that I could not compete at because I ripped it. And I’ll tell you what I did because I didn’t understand this.

He was only, gosh, he was not even 4. And I took him to a training test. This is stupidity, right? I took him to a training test at this particular venue that was one of the main competition venues in my city. It was a training test.

And I’ve been there lots of times riding in that area. You got to introduce him to that area because horses are sensory animals. That’s what we got to understand. And they learn their learnings very much connected to where they learn something. So if you teach a child to ride a bike at home, you can take them down the park and then learning will be the same because humans learn, we learn differently.

Horse of the equivalent. If you taught them to learn to ride a bike at home and you took them to the park, they would not necessarily know how to ride the bike because they connected that to back there. So anyway, you got to make sure you ride horses in this space so that your training is generalized. You can take the horse out and the trainings of that cemented side. And he’d been there before.

But anyway, what he hadn’t seen before was people in the in the view that was down the one of the long sides of the dress Argyrene. So we go down the center line and then we turn to go down the long side with the audience there in a training test. He balked at that because that’s a normal thing for a horse, right? There’s a thing which I’ll hopefully talk to you before that, I’ll go into next to tell you about something because it’s important for eventers, right? It’s important for anyone that compete.

You’ve got to understand how horses process the world and there’s differences between horses and certain zones of them. It’s called, there’s a guy called Kerry Thomas. He’s in from the States and you should have him on and have a talk to him. What he’s identified with horses is really life changing to understand them and when I coach people and I explain this part of horses, I have never had a concept or a theory that stops people in their tracks and appreciate the horse. So he sees people where he’s never seen them before so he balks.

What do you reckon I did? I spur, put my spur on and jammed him against that line of that arena to keep him on the that’s because I probably just had to ride a meter off that track in a God damn training test and it would not have been an issue. But what I did was create this association, this experience that he had that was absolutely traumatic, right for him. He was really worried about that. I didn’t listen to him.

I said, suck it up. And not only that, when you see that, I turn into a monster and jam my foot into you. That’s why people don’t understand about horses that get fearful of the writing book or spooky corners in the arena. And it’s. But when I get on, they won’t go up there.

And it’s. Yeah, because they’re worried what you turn into. You know, I broke that horse’s trust massively that day and I made that in topic arena have this air of tension where he trusts me in that arena, but I wrecked it. So I did so much work on that arena, right? And I got him a lot better.

But it was pointless entering a big competition, spending a lot of money on entry fees when I that big chance I was just holding him. So you want a horse to be really good competition horse, you must protect that horses. You’ve got to put like Brené Brown, right? Have you heard of Brene? Yeah, she has.

A concept all about trust is that trust is built in small moments. It actually comes from another US researcher called John Gottman about relationships. And trust is small moments, Right? And Brené Brown uses a jar of marbles, Right? That moments of trust you build with a horse or human or anyone is like adding marbles to a marble jar.

And the more full that marble jar is, if you do have a moment where things happen and you spill a few marbles, he’s still got a lot of marbles. So you want a really good competition horse. You got to protect their association of that arena, but you got to make when that horse goes, hell no, they’re bulk at something. You got to understand what that bulking is or that spooking is because you’re better off, especially if it’s a low level competition or a God damn training test. Blow it.

Just go around and miss it. Do not be a perfectionist. You’ve got to be able to throw away a movement. Don’t worry about it, but do not do something that does that creates this. This horses have a phenomenal memory, better than us that they’ll latch onto that and you’ll create a problem that’s going to hamper you down the track.

So you got to make decisions. Now. Do you want me to talk about sensory soundness or things like that? Let’s do it. Yeah.

Yeah. O I’ll just tell you a little bit about Kerry Causeway. If you ever want to talk to someone that’s very fascinating. Kerry Thomas is a man to talk to. So Kerry’s not into horses.

He was not into horses at all, but he loved nature. So at when he was finished high school and college and things like that, he got a job with Parks and Wildlife or whatever, helping out with studying the Mustang herds in Montana, I think it was. Anyway. So he’d go out in the wild and for weeks and he just studied these herds, these herds and know anything about horses. But he also had his main thing that he really was interested in was cat predators and how they and how they interacted with the prey.

And it was good because there was predators, horses and predators and things like that. You got to watch. But he absolutely fell in love with horses. Now the special thing about Kerry is colour blind. So Kerry can’t tell horses apart by colour, but it also makes him very observant of behaviour.

Anyway, he’d give his notes in to the researchers and they’d go what is this? Because he’d just be describing the behaviour anyway. He’s done that for decades, just studying wild horses. And he came up with, he started wondering what made this one move? What made that one move Anyway, he came up with his her dynamic theory.

Now, if I said her dynamics, because if you asked me a couple of years what her dynamics was, I would give you a different answer than I got today. So, OK, so Sam, if I said the dynamics, what does that mean to you? The horses all interact within their own community. Yeah, and that’s exactly what I thought too. But no, it’s deeper than that.

And anyone that talks about dominance hierarchy or stuff like that, it’s not. Kerry’s got a theory, right? But when you actually see it and you start working with idea and you’re putting very reckon the research was done on it, what could be validated. But just from my using the ideas, they’re powerful. So what Kerry identified and what his theory was, is that horses come together so they live in family groups and the family groups are in there and they’re drawn together by the strengths and weaknesses within their sensory systems.

And sorry, but when you say family groups, are they actually related or is it they? Just Oh yes, so family groups can just be they’re horses are herd animals, but they’re not evolved to be alone. They work collectively as a herd because herds. The herd has an intelligence and they it synchronizes and that’s being studied in anything that hurts even us, things that flock or fish that form schools, that’s being studied and it’s absolutely fascinating. So with family groups, the families of horses in the wild can be a stallion and some mares and of course young horses as well, but the boys form bands as well amongst themselves.

He started noting that he could tell certain different sensitivities, how they arranged themselves, but also how they made decisions and who was making the decision and the orders that they put themselves in, which is very fascinating. So what he theorized from his observations is that horses form a network with each other. They outsource to each other their strengths and their weaknesses. So basically when they’re grazing or they’re together, all their sensory systems is working as one or through their strengths and weaknesses. So he says within any herd, there will be a horse that has the best kind of sensory system and the best ability to process stress and the best ability to make decisions, like very fast.

And they’re the most important horse in the herd. Typically it will be within a family man or normally be a man and they will protect that man. Because what he thought when he first started watching these horse groups, his eyes were always drawn to the horse that moved the most. But he made this discovery coming back year after year. Those horses always disappeared, right?

He worked out was actually the horses that actually looked like they were doing the least, that they’re the most important because he says nature hides the most important one because predators like we’re very drawn to movement, right? So the ones that don’t move are the most important. So anyway, they’ve got their sensory system. So their sensory systems all work together as one. So we want those ones that are a little bit more sensitive.

They’re like the triple lamp system. And then the one that’s better at assessing, they then make out whether that’s a potential threat or not and they’re to lead where to go and things like that. So they’ve all got their little role within the family, but together they work as a unit. A sensory outsourced the network blanket over an area because Kerry had this experience where he actually got attacked by a Mountain Lion when he was out by himself. It actually jumped on his back and he was out, but it might get it on.

But anyway, he just remembers the five mile walk back that he had to his can. He was like traumatized. And then he just looked at the horses. The horses might get chased by a bear or wolves or whatever and they just, they brush it off and never relaxed as anything, even though they would get haunted on those relaxed. So there was something to it.

And what they had was this incredible defence, right? This incredible surveillance system that still exists in every horse today. It’s because we’ve pulled them out doesn’t mean so every horse has what he calls a herd dynamic profile of their particular their of based on the quality of their senses, their sensory ability, but also the processing ability to be able to work out whether something’s safe or not. Because the ones the ones who say the very he says just say the ones that are very high up. We’ve met those the magical 15%.

He calls them about 15% of horses are incredible at it. Now, if you ever come across a horse sometime in your life that was just amazing, that was so really easygoing and generous and you’re able to do a lot on and I’ll just like whatever. They’re what’s called a 15 percentile, right? They’re extraordinary horses. Their sensory system is phenomenal.

Their ability to process not only the sense sensory stuff, but also stress is like rolls. The rest of the horses, the other, the percentage of the horses of varying degrees, but nature needs by a variety. So those horses, what makes them special? When a horse is very sensory sound, he calls it sensory soundness. Love that.

But sensory soundness is that there’s varying degrees. So those horses have a high degree of independence. They don’t need really anyone else to do the job. But when you go down to the other horses that are not the best and you come across horses that are funny about sound, it’s a sensory soundness. All those horses that are funny about things under their nose and they’re funny about the changes, like just saying the rain is just being like wet and there’s a wet spot, dry spot or light and dark from shadows.

That’s a sensory soundness. They can’t process it. It’s a plot processing glitch that they had anyway, go on. But those forces really high, but the lower ones, the lower on the total pole and carry them. Those forces need help.

They need more help, more help from us, but they also need more nurturing because even though they might be lower and their abilities not as good, you can nurture it. You can teach it a lot of exposures. That’s why think about a horse that you’ve had them if it’s not very good when it was young, but as it worked, it got better and better. What you have strategically done without realizing it is you’ve nurtured their sensory abilities and their processing abilities. You’ve exercised that.

So getting back to the decisions we make, wanting our horse to be an awesome competition horse, you got to get that sensory system. You got to give it a lot of exposure, but also time. So let me give an example. So the horses that have, let’s just take the example of the horses that are funny about things on the ground. You’ve come across one of those before.

One or two. Yeah, there’s just that, but you just always know how bad was. This is funny about things under there, nothing about things on the ground. They’re funny about light and dark and shadows and stuff like that. I use them as an example.

OK, so this I’m going to go through my life of how I’ve handled that and how I handle it now. So we’ll forget when I didn’t know a thing, when I would have just gone. It’s such a stupid, naughty horse, right? But I’ve gone. That’s so annoying.

And then I realised it was just like, go over it. I just force them over it and I’d get horses to go over it and they’d do it, but they’d still always be funny about things on the ground, right? Then I stopped and I would just, what I was doing was just ignore it so I wasn’t driving them over it. This is my evolution. I wouldn’t drive them over and I’d let them because I knew that if we just went around a few times, they’d get over it.

I didn’t make a fuss about it. I didn’t punish it. So that, but then it’s like from Kerry’s stuff, it’s you’re slow processing it. So what I would do, I just let him look at it, right. I’d let him stop and let’s have a look.

Let’s look at it, be allowed to look and then off they’d go. And what happened? Those horses now become horses that don’t have a problem with things on the ground. Once, but not now. Yeah, because I built their trust in it.

So first of all, I’ve exercised their mental processing abilities in that sense. But also they’ve learnt to trust me that even if things are a bit funny, they are surely never puts me in any dangerous. So I’ll just take on board. And I’d never ram their nose down it like I did once. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. It’s really giving them a lot of exposure and letting them have a look and stuff like that. So when you are at that state championships or that national championships or that big thing, you can maybe if you have to do thing but a little bit of spirit to take a few marbles out, right. But that particular moment. But you have protected it by.

All up to it. I definitely want to be conscientious of your time, but what do you make of this idea that people want their forces to respect them? Because I hear a lot of what you’re saying is, OK, all horses come to the table with something different. So to me that sounds like you’re nurturing the relationship. Yes, versus creating an outcome.

The outcome, although in your head, if you give them time to look at it, they’re going to overcome it. So you know what the outcome is, but you’re not necessarily trying to create the outcome. You’re just stopping them in their tracks and letting them process and then they move on. What I’m doing is I’m respecting the equine. I’m respecting.

I’m understanding it deeply. This isn’t it. That’s what that behavior is like. Let him have a look, but let him have a look at things. That thing we started off, I wrote a blog about letting horses wait 13 seconds.

That was really the whole looking thing. When a horse looks at something, there’s a number of layers to it. It depends. Like there’s a lot of different looks. There’s the eighteen hands growing, the 18 hands holding their breath, staring at something, and then there’s the bulking away from something.

That’s a different thing altogether. So there’s a few different things, but if you want me to talk about respect, like that thing that would get that gets thrown around. It was a stage once when I said, yeah, a horse has got to respect you. Now I never took that of I have to respect me like the queen, not that type because respect has a lot of different meanings. So I listened to all the chatter and stuff out there that turns people inside and upside down around about with what’s trying to do the right thing by their horses.

And I think what the word respect really means, and even with the people that use it means they had the horse has to respect what that means. This is the guy where I stick between the rails or respects that signal or that. And I think the respect they’re talking about is more about motivation to respond to you than just say thinking that you’re some you list leader for them, that they hold them to how I, the more I understand the horse, I more understand what we are actually achieving between US and horse. And there’s we use the word partnership and we use the word relationship. It’s an interspecies partnership and relationship.

The relationships depended on the quality of the partnership. So when I made a horse, right, we’re going to become one. OK, I’ve got to learn to work with me. When I sit on back, we’re like centaurs. We become one and that’s why my logo, so I’m wearing my logo is, is what that means.

We become one. So we become one doing one thing together. So that’s the partnership. So when we create that, it’s a very special thing because you are, it’s our role because it’s our decision to do it. We’re the human with the great idea to sit on their back.

They’ve got nothing, no choice in it. So what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to create the language for them to understand us. And then we’ve got to grow their understanding, their motivation, their confidence to be able to do that. And there’s another factor. We’re going to look after their bodies.

And that’s a whole lot of right. That’s my biggest thing that I’ve discovered that how that all fits in right. So we create this partnership and the partnership, there’s two roles in it, right? Our role is our human superpower, which humans are the ones that we make the decisions, right? This is our world.

We know where it’s safe. We know how to navigate it. So we make decisions on the direction, the destination, what we’re doing and how fast or what we’re going to do to actually get there. We make those decisions. That sucks.

The horse’s role is to put that into action. Now when they put in that into action, our job is not to get in their Rd. We’ve got to be the greatest load to carry and not hamper them in their physical ability to be able to do that. Now when it comes to the decisions, they have to learn to follow us so we’ll make the decisions they don’t now that’s great power, isn’t it? That is mendous responsibility.

It’s totally Superman. The credits power comes great responsibility. That means every single decision you make to do anything you have to consider the horse and it has to be to the horses short term or long term benefit. And So what happens when you do that? You create this.

It’s like we do this thing together, but we’ve got these different jobs. I’m the one that’s going to make decisions where we’re going. You’d follow along. I’m not to make that difficult for you, but you’ve got to follow me, right? But I’m not going to go and make you do anything.

I’m listening to you. The feedbacks both ways, because when you ride a horse, you feel them. You feel with those feet don’t want to go feel when they’re worried about something. You feel when they’re physically struggling. And I’m sure you can feel when they’re fatiguing or think like that or they’re concerned or whatever.

You can feel also when they’re not 100%, but they’re doing what you’re asking. You could feel all that, so you listen to all of that. They’re listening to you through our touch language. They can feel us, they’re thinking us, which is really amazing. You got to remember that we have a thought in our head and we’re able to touch something and put the thought in their head.

That’s incredible. So we get this amazing partnership, right? And from that, the quality of that will determine the quality of your relationship you have, how they see you and perceive you. Quality. So when it I hope that answers your question.

So I don’t see this respect. I understand why the word was used because you know what? I needed to hear that word first to have an idea about what was going on. I needed to hear because it was simple enough for me to understand, but now I understand it’s deeper than that. I had this equine, this horse that is, I’m telling you now, the most gentle, trainable creature on the planet.

We always labeling horses as prey animals and that they’re scared cats. They’re not listen, like I went and watched horses in the wild. That was the great couple of years ago when Kerry came out, we went to the Snowy Mountains here in Australia and we went and watched the wild Brumbies. And do you know what? I recommend anyone do that because I was really taken aback by that because I thought, wow, I have loved this animal and in with this animal my whole life.

Yet I realized I had never asked them. It was like I’d worked with someone really closely and they’d be my friend and I’d never bothered asking them about where they were from or what their family was like. But when you see horses in the wild, right, they’re not scaredy cats, not scaredy cats at all Networking and they’re outsourcing going and they’re fantastic at recubating their stress. They’re incredibly brave. They are incredibly blame animals.

History has this riding into combat on horseback don’t have a horse will come with us. They’re brave and they’re nature made horse very reactive. That’s their survival thing. When they feel alarmed or threatened, that will move away very fast. They don’t have horns, they don’t have teeth.

They’ve got speed, so they run. That’s the thing, trigger to run. But nature had to balance that out and nature balance them out by making them incredibly fast learners. They’re OK. That’s all you got to do.

They’re OK. Let them understand you repeated enough time to say that’s OK, that they’re not going to. People think sitting on a horse’s back is a big deal. That’s very easy to do. It’s amazing.

It’s OK. You can sit on my back. They’re amazing. Yeah. So that’s how it works.

Understand the horse. Understand that they’re learning. The better learners. They’re faster and easier than training a dog. It’s super fast and just teach them that’s what you’ve got to do.

And then give them enough time. Just give them enough time. Understand their equineness and their sense processes and they can be slow at looking at things and they just need a bit of time. But you can nurture that, get with you. So form that partnership, have a quality relationship and that horse will go to war for you.

You just got to take it up and from being a pro about how you develop a horse and it’s a systematic process of exposure and upping it and dropping down when you have to, you’re making those decisions and that’s what makes you a pro. Other people not that’s what sorted you out from everybody else. That’s exactly in the words that I’ve used. What you’ve been doing is that high level decision making, that high understanding of horses, but that’s what you can. That’s what you’re actually doing.

That’s what sorts you out from everybody else and and that’s what everyday people can learn actually as well. And that’s OK. Yeah, question. Yeah, no, that, that was great. And the, I forget exactly how you worded it, but we’re not necessarily looking for respect.

We’re looking for the how they, what motivates them and how quickly they are to motivate. And I, that’s such a great way to think of it because I have this one off the track, thoroughbred mare. And you would think, my God, off the truck, thoroughbred mare, she’s probably wild. Half the time I can’t get this thing to trot. And I go, and sometimes it gets really frustrating because I go, I know you know how to trot.

You trotted yesterday, you trotted the day before, and today you don’t feel like trotting. And that’s the jump that I’ve had to make. It’s maybe there’s a reason she feels like she can’t trump. And by every time I kick her on to do it, I’m taking money out of the bank. Oh yeah.

Can I give you another insight because I love off the track thoroughbreds. I’ve actually got a very I’ve got a particular off the track thoroughbred program that I’ve written with that I’ve made AI collaborate. I love collaborating with people, right? I’ve got a fantastic Isabelle Chandler. She’s from the in from the thoroughbred industry.

She’s been everything from a jockey to you name it, and she’s fantastic body worker. But what’s going on there with the off the trackers, which you have to understand, how long has she been off the track for? A bit over a year, but she had a lot of downtime post. Tracks. So OK, so when they come off the track, This is why understanding force transfer and the physics of the body and especially the thoroughbred that has raced.

So when they come off the track, they look like these athletes, right athletes. And then when they come off, they’re all tight because there’s so much tightness and inflammation in their system. They’re all tight. When they go through their let down phase, everything collapses. OK, so everything collapses within them.

So they don’t have this kind of fluid force transfer. So they people get these horse looks like athletes and then they look at her a few months later and it’s like it looks awful right. Then you got to bring them back in. So I’d say what you’re doing, even though she’s been off a year, all her internal right? And it goes all the way to their gut and their diaphragm.

It’s all sticky. And you’ve got to wait till those structures have got to come back together and join up that because the horse is basically suspended in four parts, 4 compartments through it. They’ve all got to be resurrected from one side. And her probably not wanting to trot is not feeling they’re they’re all out of whack because they’re all their work integrity is all out of whack and it’s uncomfortable. So they just don’t have that really good force transfer.

The greatest thing I can say is what I call can of therapy. My podcast is called can of therapy, but can of therapy with them in the round yard, no one on their back and we just kind of transition. There’s no driving them. There’s no chasing them. It’s just focusing on can of transition because they can’t ties to the diaphragm because the diaphragm in most of them’s got.

It’s all because we’re not because you probably notice and I’m probably not telling you anything you don’t know. It’s a difference in the way the horses diaphragm works at walk and truck compared to canner and gallop. So the a canner and gallop, I’ll just tell people just for the pod is that the when they’re walking truck, the intercostal must so the chest will expand. That’s how the diaphragm will expand. But when the horse canners and gallop, the hind leg comes through and actually pulls the diaphragm from a different mechanism.

So that’s why when you’re galloping, you can hear that beautiful rhythmic breathing that happens that’s from the hind legs coming through and taking the diaphragm. That does amazing for those thoroughbreds coming off the track of giving them a bit of can of therapy. No one on their back because they’re all contorted from racing. Good bit of can of therapy opens them up because horses, three tubes, the gut, the nervous system and the muscles. We just focus on the muscle, the muscles and burn.

That’s what we think it is. It’s a Nah, it starts here in the gut, right? And also that, but she would have had a lot of the gut gets hammering. So quality. So by getting that working, that diaphragmatic layer with lots of can of work, even if it’s just on a laundry and around doesn’t matter, but a lot of the can of work, no one on their back.

It’s the quickest way of getting everything tuned up. So I reckon that interesting. Yeah. Thoroughbreds are the easiest forces to. Work and I agree, yeah.

Getting in from that inner tube and then working out. But that could be why she’s struggling, because it’s a low transfer. A horse has to be out of feel like yeah. And then the hind legs are the engine, the front legs is what gives them direction. That’s how they’re built.

But what happens during racing but also when we sit on their back, we actually stop that from working. So she’s got collapse and then you got to rebuild up. So with your skills, you’ll be able to do be patient with that because then all the mental stuff happens as well. It’s like my body is out of whack. I feel bounce, don’t feel mobile.

That’s making me anxious. And her way of dealing with it is I’ll just. Shut. Down, shut down exactly. There’s another one you’ll get will be like whoa, running away from it because that’s how they are.

You need to go run. They get anxious with movement and they can shut down or they get aggressive. Yeah, sorry if I’ve gone on. No, this was so great and I feel like we’ve covered so many. Different.

Topics, but all under the same umbrella. So how do people find you? Follow along with what you’re doing. All of that good stuff. Yeah, thanks.

So I’ve got a website which is calm willing confident horses.com dot AU. It’s got all about me and my programs and what ioffer. But follow me on Facebook, which is Doctor Shelley Appleton, Calm willing confident horses, or on my Instagram, which is at calm willing confident Horses. Or I’ve also got at Doctor Shelley Appleton too. Awesome.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, no problem. Thank you.